Yet Another Horrific Visions Post. With a twist

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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I have seen a lot of Horrific Visions posts here on the forum however one thing that no one actually points out to is game design.

Two main sides of the discussion always arise:
1 - The casual player frustrated by visions and its mechanics. Not understanding what he is supposed to be doing to be able to clear it. And frankly not equipped with a self-improving mindset.

2 - The elitist chad that repeats 5 masks clears with one finger while blindfolded with old expansion potions, advanced macros, and 200 apm per femtosecond breaking the barrier of time and space surpassing god as the king of emperors of gods of man, replying something on the lines of “git gud”.

But I’m here to modestly propose a new point to this discussion, that Horrific Visions are objectively bad game design. Allow me, dear reader, to explain before the heavy breathing and keyboard pounding begins in the always so very educated replies.

World of Warcraft is a game. A game is meant to be played. It invites the grasshopper to its magical circle embarking in a journey to the plane of the sacred in search of the flame of life (book references). Considering all we know about World of Warcraft imagine two imaginary exaggerated scenarios in a Horrific Vision with 5 masks:

1 - A mob does a skill wherein 1.3 seconds a tentacle will spawn and bash the floor, instantly draining all sanity and killing the player ending the run.

2 - A mob does an undodgeable knockback that pushes the player into a fear that leads him to a stun that leads him to fear while draining sanity 100% to 0% on the floor, either killing the poor individual or virtually ending the run.

The fundamental difference in game design between these two scenarios is quite simply agency. In one of them, the game pushes a challenge towards the player and the player has to react accordingly and in a timely fashion, how fast and how dangerous that challenge dictates the perceived notion of difficulty. The other crowd controls the player negating further input and removing agency.

If World of Warcraft is a game, and a game is meant to be played, removing all agency from the player while punishment is being dealt as opposed to punishing mistakes, is against its own nature and design. The first is about skill, the second is about forethought to counter bad game design.

I really hope whoever designed this either learns from their mistake or gets fired so that Shadowlands can have content with better game design. These are quite old and already solidified game design tid bits, a professional game designer should know better.

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Removing all agency can be summed up as removing all masks. You seem to have this notion that a 5-mask vision should be farmable content by all, but that’s not the case. Not everyone raids mythic, not everyone pushes 20+ keys; just the same, not everyone does 5-mask visions either. You are not required to do a 5-mask vision and calling it “objectively bad game design” is a weak argument. It’s pretty simple, if you do not like challenging content then don’t do it. Play within your means.

Yikes.

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Then don’t get hit by the ability that removes your agency. All but one mechanic in both sets of visions can be dodged, interrupted, cc’d, or otherwise counter played.

The single exception is the Voidcrazed Hulk in the Valley of Wisdom in Orgrimmar. He can throw you into split personality regardless of how well you’ve planned because where he throws you is random.

Other than that, anything that causes a problem is a player issue. I don’t fall into either of the two types of players you present in your false dichotomy. Even a cursory glance at my armory or logs will show I am an average player at best. I have certainly experienced frustration during the visions, but I have rightfully directed the frustration at myself instead of the game. Consequently, I’ve learned to do them on multiple characters with a high degree of success, even though I’m not a particularly great player.

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This. 100%.

I’d argue that visions are widely misunderstood and that many people (including well-known WoW streamers) have not invested any time into understanding the mechanics in a modest complexity.

You can avoid mechanics, cheese fights, and clear a 5-mask vision with a moderate item level. If more people understood visions, they would easily be able to clear a 5-mask with no issues.

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Our you can use your class, even race (hi EMFT), abilities to negate the cc cascade if you make a mistake. Giving you a chance to showcase your recovery skill after a mistake.

Throwing out “objectively bad game design” because it uses a series of mistakes that can be interrupted or saved rather than straight 1 shots is insane.

Understanding the visions, affixes, pathing, mob abilities, potions, etc., all culminate in being able to clear 5 masks at relatively low (445ish) item levels.

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There are certain situations in visions that border on bs. 99% of them are still preventable if you play better and plan ahead. You know what mobs have cc abilities. You know if you are affected by split personality. You can put yourself somewhere safe before the ability happens, you can be ready to use movement abilities or immunities. Even the hulk example - you can avoid that pretty reliably on most classes by using a movement ability to get yourself out/away from the disorient things before he throws you. It can even be dodged with some really precise timing if you have a blink. On my wheelchair shaman I accept that I might get hit by the combo once or twice, so I simply don’t engage him unless my sanity is high enough.

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While I recognize that nearly everything has counterplay, I have multiple times been thrown into a split personality that I had safely left and moved far away from trying to minimize the likelihood of a problem.

That said, while frustrating, it has never once cost me a vision.

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You missed the point entirely. A game is meant to be played. The problem with horrific visions is bad game design principles not exactly bad gameplay. I cleared them 5 masks ok, but the experience could be way better and it seems a lot of people share the sentiment.

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Right, but your angle is that it’s not playable… it is playable. Challenging content is not meant to be easily done by everyone. Each one of these posts about visions are usually due to a mechanic that was avoidable or a strategy that could’ve made the issue much smoother. I think that the misinformation or missing information about visions is why they are difficult and not necessarily “bad gameplay design” as you suggested. Is there room for improvement? Sure… but suggesting someone get fired for creating challenging content is laughable.

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That was never what is being stated. What was stated is that the quality of the game design is poor. The principles are lacking.

What you are proposing is that the player should know and understand the game design as a means to counter it instead of being invited inside the magic circle and embarking on the journey as a player. Which is widely known as a horrible game design principle. A lack of solid game design principles has brought us horrible expansions after horrible expansions. So yeah calling for drastic change is needed.

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You’re missing the point. I enjoy them and I’m not the only one. I like the scaling difficulty. I like the severe punishment for making mistakes in 5 masks. I enjoy them on all the characters I’ve done them on. I like that almost every single thing is controllable by me, the player, with knowledge and practice.

You don’t like them, and that’s fine, but don’t confuse your dislike with bad design.

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You fall into the “git gud” category, you have 30985 achievement points you are not average, you are very knowledgeable of the game. And you are conformed and content with it, this post is not for you. Its about game design not gameplay.

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No it isn’t. Change is fine, but I don’t feel the design is fundamentally flawed by any means. If this was a big issue where only a few people were able to complete the content, then I’d agree with “drastic” change. Visions are completed by many people and, to my limited knowledge, most players are able to complete a 5-mask run, usually after some reading and plenty of practice.

What I’m proposing is more information being circulated on how to perform visions at an optimal level. It’s not a bandaid solution for me to say you should look up a strategy on visions. I can tell you from experience of coaching several players on visions that most people don’t know simple strategies on making their visions easier. If you came to this thread with proposed solutions, evidence that wasn’t wildly circumstantial and exaggerated, as you put it, then I’d most likely agree with you in some capacity.

You’ve suggested drastic changes with no constructive criticism or even a suggestion as to how it could be changed. If you’re going to call for someone to be fired for issues you are having and not even providing solutions, you’re not going to get much support from people who have taken the time to understand and practice things to avoid mechanics. Difficulty in content is not flawed game design.

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We’re using achievement points to pigeon-hole people in categories now when they disagree with our opinion?

I’m also of the mind (as many of the people in this thread are) who think the content is, for the most part, fine (boring and repetitive), and that the issues you’ve detailed do not require “understanding of game design” to counter the issues you’ve presented. They represent a basic level of understanding of the mechanics you are attempting to play against and nothing more. It is literally a system in knowing which mechanics are the most dangerous (as it is in any content of this game) and playing appropriately to not fail those mechanics.

Now, my achievement points are much less than Zothlar and more akin to yours, so which category are you going to add me to? Or are you going to find some other determination to try and devalue yet another counter-viewpoint instead of addressing the arguments being presented?

Just for the record achievement points aren’t an indication of anything except time spent. You are grasping at straws and are struggling at addressing the actual criticisms being leveled at your argument and are opting for making attacks at the person responding. Be better.

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I think the visions are unique content and I had a reasonably fun time learning them. Loss of control is a challenge in many areas of the game and learning to manage it was just part of it all.

However, I absolutely do not like that they are a chore that I have to do every single week. The loss of control mechanics do grate on me now because it’s just like “been there done that” every single time I run them. I am currently running friends through who are just now coming back to the game and visions just feel like such a hassle.

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I have those achievement points because I’ve played for 12 years. Hugging all the squirrels doesn’t make me a good player. I generally parse blue at my best, my only cutting edge was one of the easiest tiers in the game’s history, and I hit 2k io for the first time in season 4.

All of my most significant achievements that might indicate skill were all obtained with a group of players that I acknowledge were better than me, generally speaking.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think I’m terrible, I’m just trying to demonstrate that I am far from the world class gamer you want me to be to have this opinion. I feel pretty confident that at my ability, if I can do it, nearly anyone else can as well if they invest the time and the effort.

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I’m dying :rofl: I totally remember going around to all the critters back in LK/Cata and emoting them lol

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You need to read things with more attention. My original post has both the criticism, the reasoning, and the solution to the issue raised.

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You have not suggested changes. You have only offered criticism without actual evidence/reasoning behind it. You have given two unusual scenarios which I can’t even conceptualize and used that as your basis. So yes, I’ve read what you’ve said and I cannot find any discernible constructive ideas… it’s summarized as "this content isn’t playable, it’s bad game development, and here are two exaggerated scenarios.

I had to re-read your excerpt several times to try to understand it. It was clouded with statements so you didn’t get ridiculed for your opinion and figurative statements.

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There is nothing figurative its all bibliographical (as stated in parenthesis). Let me try to explain in a short sentence. It is my responsibility to make myself comprehended as well.

Game loops based on crowd control as a medium of difficulty are widely known as a bad game design principle throughout the industry for 17 years now. The correct way is to enact difficulty based on the loop that is native to the game in question.

In the context of WoW’s game design, while you are under cc you are not playing the game. A better alternative is what is done inside raids, mechanics that require positioning and timing.