Yes... Deroz probably disagrees with you

Bro would you stop lol. The consensus of popularity of covenants is their strength numbers-wise. People flocked, as expected, to the best abilities. Yes popularity means the best. Just like talent choices on the top raiding guilds’. Stop that. Horrible take.

I have logs of condemn being exactly 50-70% of fellow fury warriors damage in multiple pulls. Are you even being serious right now? It’s able to be used half the health of mobs on every pull if not more with rng. The condemn to brrrr meme is a thing for a reason. Ya might as well just make the action bar ww, rampage and fill the rest up with condemn.

It absolutely does not. Correlation does not equal causation.

Consensus of the majority is often uninformed. The only thing condemn is the best at without any further context is a single target sim.

Then your fellow fury warrior is garbage.

If a fury warrior, finishes a dungeon, with condemn being more than 30% of their overall, they are not playing correctly.

The sky is blue Derez.

I imagine you wanna debate that. The forum is generally where you like to disagree with everything that’s posted. Go for it.

You’re confusing correcting of incorrect information with being argumentative.

Venthyr isn’t broken. Even with it warrior is currently a bottom-tier class, that’s why we’re being buffed.

Everything is matter of opinion, man. You can’t claim anything more fact than me because your stance on something is to be full of conviction on it.
Stated my opinion. You did yours. Good day, sir.

PS Condemn being 20% of damage lmaooo. Please. What button besides the enrage of BT and rampage to dump rage are you choosing for WW AoE procs besides condemn? If rng is good to ya, it can be useable half the entire pull’s duration and yes, yes, it will be more than 20% of total damage for a fury warrior. That’s laughable to think otherwise. All you have to do is look up any footage of fury warriors w/ condemn on video from any form of endgame content. It procs like fireworks on Fourth of July and not pressing it is a crime against humanity unless enrage is needed or rage has to be dumped. Even regular execute is often more than 20% on a regular trash pull with some rng favor. Come on man.

PPS. Please. The data obviously shows some specs are heavily (more than 60-70% of all players at 60) are choosing a specific covenant. You have to be trying not to look at the evidence supporting why that would be. Yeah I’m sure shamans just love them some necrolords. It can’t possibly be the best covenant ability choice that swayed that decision lmao. In this specific example, yes popularity would show a correlation to best. That’s where the pulltheripcord issue came into play. People. Will. Play. What’s. Best. And. They. Did. Most, anyways. If you truly believe 70% of fury warriors just happened to also love the Venthyr covenant ironically, that’s just silly. There’s a specific reason for it. It performs well in every aspect.
Glad to see banner not being taken much. It’s unpopular appeal must be that no warriors like maldraxxus vibes. All that strength, warrior-like mumbo jumbo just doesn’t fit the class fantasy. That’s what it was. The data showing the lack of popularity with that covenant for warrior is most certainly not correlating with its crap ability. Nay. It must not be a popular theme for warriors, that’s it! Big brain.

It’s not, though. The best clears of m+ with venthyr fury have a range of 19-28% values for condemn damage, combining mh+oh damage. Giving some leeway of 2%, you can still confidently say that going over 30% is playing improperly or sub-optimally. That’s not a matter of opinion, it’s just analyzing the available data.

Rampage, BS, BT, RB, AA. This shouldn’t be hard to see, literally just…look at logs.

That’s assuming you’re using SD. Which You don’t always do. Fury has relative freedom with talent choices in dungeons.

It has a 1.7+haste rppm. It does not “proc like fireworks”.

Can you tell me why venthyr is best for fury.

Because the only data so far shown to support that is that it sims the highest in st scenarios and gives more execute potential.

Calling it the flat out strongest, without considering how fight design and specific scenarios affect the overall strength of different covenants is incredibly narrow minded and silly. It’s that kind of sim chasing that content creators abuse for clicks when new content is released, while simultaneously mocking the consumers. For good reason.

You somehow misconstrued me saying “venthyr is not the strongest, end all be all” with “necrolord is actually the strong covenant”.

Which would be impressive if it weren’t so inane.

These are the top logs from every dungeon. None passes the 28% mark for combined condemn damage.

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this is either a well committed troll or pure ignorance, there are other reasons people might prefer Venthyr over the others, banner needs all around buffs and no one wants the weak choice, both fury and arms deal extra reliable cleave damage with it albiet much weaker than kyrian or night fae when targets reach 5+ as far as I’m aware, and it doesn’t add an extra button.

I choose Venthyr, as an arms warrior for 2 reasons, I wanted higher ST as I’m raiding, and I didn’t want yet another button to press.

and no, popularity doesn’t not = power, correlation does not equal causation, I myself didn’t choose it for its power, which I’d have more of in dungeons if I choose say kyrian or night fae, I’d be better in pvp If I picked either of those too, Venthyr is probably the weakest simply due to its sole focus of being a minor cleave boost in MT, and stronger in ST , making it the best for one type of content, raiding.

And yes, Derez is right if you’re performing your rotation correctly on fury, Rampage will still be no.1 in your damage breakdown, not his fault fury warriors aren’t doing what they are bloody meant to.


In what world is saying that different people have fun in different ways somehow objectionable.

Are you confused?

add myopic yet somehow still degenerate to the list.

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They could just pull the ripcord and be done with all of these issues…
#PullTheRipcord - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (

The wowhead fury warrior guide is assumed to be referenceable by all on this forum. You quoted a wowhead article its assumed you’re capable of finding the required reading on there as well.

Derez was plenty happy to provide plenty of it and…surprise you don’t care. Thediesel pulled plenty of data for you on how much of a lead venthyr actually has in ST, you ignored it. Because facts don’t affect what you think. You decide, then look for stuff to support your decision. New data contrary to it is ignored, and any who disagree are the enemy.

Also, naming and shaming is explicitly banned in the CoC. Your cute title change could very well earn you a forum vacation.


If a Venthyr warrior is beating you in AoE; either A. They vastly out gear you; or B. You’re not playing correctly.
There is tons of info out there to support the claims both Derez and Aédan are presenting you. You may feel Condemn is OP, but it’s not. The sims are a great indication of how well something can do, when everything else is equal, (Rotation, gear, etc.)


I loved the analogy.

Except Necrolord is just a car frame with no engine. It looks good in my garage, but it won’t be going anywhere soon.

Taking huntsman is a little disingenuous since it’s a cleave fight which will benefit Kyrian. When you take single target, Venthyr pulls ahead. This is good and should be how choices get designed - to be meaningful differences.

The problem that arises is Necrolord should do the least DPS but provide the most group utility. Unfortunately the utility our covenant provides doesn’t offset the damage others bring, so either the group utility needs tuned up (which will be hard to manage later on and is not preferred for acceptance metrics in current game state), or the personal effects (Glory stacks) need changed/buffed to close the gap.

This is supported in the sentiment throughout this thread. Almost every comparison intentionally drops Necrolord because there’s a problem and it’s easiest to ignore it for relative “debunking” of Condemn power (Condemn is fine).

If you want a clear picture of performance ratings, each covenant should be evaluated against a control setting of “no covenant”. That will give you the best idea of what’s performing highly in each category. Comparing relative to other covenants shifts the basis for which the comparison rests, and ignores contexts, which drives more results than the comparators.

Kyrian’s dominance is more hectic add cleave type, not sustained 2 target cleave. Condemn works very well in two target cleave, especially with an Arms warrior. Plus because of how the pet killing works, you have Condemn up for a disproportionately high portion of the fight. You’ve got the entire 55% of the huntsman’s health pool…plus anytime one of the pets is cleavable and in the sweet spot healthwise as well. It’s a good fight for comparing stuff, I don’t think the differential between the two changes really from ST.

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Yes- this explains why Condemn can be competitive here without falling way behind Kyrian. What this doesn’t explain though is the essence of why selecting this one particular fight is disingenuous. The note that the Kyrian ability pulls farther ahead with more targets available to cleave was secondary to that point.

Huntsman is one fight. Any single fight will tell a story about contextual performance. Using the entire raid as a basis for both covenants would be more genuine though as it captures multiple contexts. Hopefully the results are similar, but I haven’t looked–its not my claim to support. It’s really just tail end discussions though and by ability text alone expecting Kyrian to be differentially more powerful with more targets to hit is intuitive (let alone PvP), and as you point out, the counterintuitive claim is that benefits of Kyrian will be softened for 2 target cleave as Arms thanks to SwS and up to 4 target cleave as Fury thanks to WW.

We can expect the tails of both covenants in the performance distribution to pull away based on context. But that’s not speaking much to actual balance, hence my core notes:

Thediesel wrote his post 5 days ago. Heroic raid hadn’t even been cleared. This is also a video game forum not a phd defense. He chose the most available, straightforward, and widely understood fight. It plays solidly into Condemn’s strengths, yet we don’t see it outperforming to anything resembling a gamebreaking degree. It makes the point fine.

This will never happen. Useless hypothetical.

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Rips up paper.

Wonderful confetti for our party. :partying_face:

I appreciate that you defend him so vehemently, even though I wasn’t trying to attack anyone. Just noting that it’s one context which is a little disingenuous.

I am admittedly five days late to the party.

I was just making the point that even with it being a more favorable fight for Condemn, Kyrian is still not far behind it.

Just to sort of dispel this idea that somehow Condemn is the only way to go because it’s insanely “OP” as some people seem to think.