It has to be noted. An issue with Blizzard giving covenants an ability was that balance was key to that being a choice, opposed to making the wrong one when one is clearly above the others. We have this example here with warriors and condemn.
I am a huge night fae fan and have been from day one. I prefer my character to go through their story and i really enjoy ancient aftershock.
However, every warrior I’ve grouped with so far has been Venthyr, and for good reason. Out of curiosity, when any warrior is topping me on damage (and roughly the same IL) it’s always someone running condemn at 35-45% of their damage. Arms or fury.
It has to be noted, as should any other class/specs that have a clear and obvious choice (covenant-choice-wise) because of damage tuning.
It’s a really fun ability and I love how it works. I am not trying to have the thing ruined. But it simply outputs too much damage and I fear a ‘you’re not venthyr, decline’ issue will come eventually if it remains as the obvious choice based off much higher damage tuning.
I understand it’s a fun toy and one you don’t want taken. But it’s painfully obvious it’s a bit too unbalanced with the others.
wowranks .io says about 70% of fury warriors are venthyr lol, to no one’s surprise. Necrolord is at 6%. Please just buff my necrolord warrior I’m begging you.
of course, but then it’s tackling 3 more covenants instead of one. whichever is less work is fine, but it’s clear one is way too good opposed to the others and the ‘meaningful choice’ is lost.
The problem with what you’re saying is that it’s really not though. The only notably weak covenant for arms or fury is necrolord. The other’s are well within range to not be problematic.
One choice was always going to be “generally best”, or at least widely considered as such.
Warrior is not in a good spot right now anyway compared to other classes, condemn is about the only thing floating arms or fury dps above bottom of the list levels. The only thing I’m curious about is how sigment of tormented kings and judgement of the avatar will affect dps. Currently arms has no readily available legendaries that are worth using, and even then it has better dps than fury running its best in slot legendary (deathmaker). Blizz really needs to run a balance pass on warrior and bring all of the specs up a bit - I’d be fine with middle of the pack dps, just not bottom of the barrel.
I’d be very, very interested to see the first week of raiding how any of the other spells will be simming there compared to condemn. In M+, AA is (with my cd shortened conduit, too) only my top damage when I can use it. Every fight has condemn being relevant with the Sudden Death talent especially. For condemn alone to be about 35-45% of damage for each fight, that’s just ridiculous. The sustain the ability has is heaps and bounds overs those with a cd. Why…really…would I take Spear or AA for M+ when I can WW spam condemns to everyone w/o any cd? Single target? Not even close. One choice only. It needs some negative to not want to take it (out of pvp).
The other covenants are added abilities, separate from what you already have.
Condemn is execute, just improved.
Execute is already a decent portion of your damage as arms/fury. Something tells me you might be failing completely to take that into account.
That’s without mentioning that the value of the other abilities lies not just in their damage, but the rage they generate, which would show in other, non-covenant abilities.
The raid doesn’t come out till tomorrow. If you’re referring solely to the bosses in the dungeons…well yeah man. Venthyr is stronger single target. If you’re referring to dungeon overall damage, well they shouldn’t be. Up your play, you’re losing in AOE to players not as optimally specced for it.
I have literally never known the covenants of anyone I’ve run with, and for pugs, I frankly don’t see that changing.
Venthyr is the best single target option of our available covenants while remaining a viable option for dungeons. Kyrian and Night Fae both are viable options for single target, while performing better in PvP and burst AoE/Dungeon situations. Some people like Necrolords transmog. It’s frankly a perfectly balanced talent tier, with a fourth trap option that comes with an aesthetic some people are unlucky enough to really enjoy, that you can’t quickly change.
I can see where you’d think that having me not bring it up. I, as fury, run SD a lot and use execute often as I can (As any warrior should) with WW procs especially, but it’s never really up there in the top of my damage unless RNG blesses me with procs.
My point is, generally speaking so far from M0 spam this week, every warrior I’ve run with has me beat pretty laughably that runs condemn. Every pack, boss or otherwise. There may be a AA off cd pull I can manage top damage in, but the others I don’t come close. I don’t like the idea of condemn itself being 40% of the damage with high sustain while I wait out a minute and a half CD to use mine.
I just don’t want a situation where it’s clearly the best single target and too competitive as the M+ choice too. If it’s true some 70% of fury warriors are taking it then there’s a clear reason for this.
How are they not as optimally specced for it? AA, as an example, on a 1.5 min cd or the spear (don’t get me started on necro) have a CD. Sure, one pack every couple of minutes might go their way on the charts, but WW -> condemn is by far the best sustain AoE as well in packs. If I can’t use my ability until it’s off CD then it’s not ‘upping my play’. It’s 'reduce the cd’s on other spells to compete with the best single target spell also being able to be an incredibly strong AoE without nearly the CD the others do).
You sound really really happy with condemn and don’t want that changed, and I get that, but let’s not pretend there isn’t a clear favorite choice among the warrior community for a no reason. It’s strongest single target and has a very high AoE potential without much any CD the others suffer. It needs a weak spot.
I wish I could send the link to it but I have a recent dungeon damage recount of an arms warrior with 75% of the boss damage (that spawns adds) as condemn. That’s just stupid. Next ability is overpower at 28%
I would imagine your general rotation is probably fairly weak. I see a couple LFR kills and no M+ experience over a +5. This isn’t meant to shame you in any way, simply to say that with almost certainty you’re probably not performing anywhere near the ideal of the spec. Most people you’re running into have a lot more experience than that.
Yes, Spear and AA both do more raw dps in AOE than Condemn. If you’re not getting that, that is on you and your groups. I’m not going to argue the numbers with you, I am not a theorycrafter. Head over to Skyhold and talk to Archi if you want to do that. During my brief dungeon forays as a Kyrian and Night Fae during levelling, I saw nothing to make me dispute his analysis. I can almost guarantee that you and your groups are not getting the most out of them. A large part is simply pack pacing in m0s is all over the place because tank experience/comfort varies widely, and the mobs just don’t live very long.
This is anecdotal, and its worthless.
I greatly enjoy the ability, but no, I’m not perfectly happy. I had to make a clear choice and legitimately sacrifice performance in other areas of play to maximize performance in raid. If shadowlands had been coming out at a different time when I was willing to sacrifice about 2% ST damage to perform better in M+, I’d be Kyrian in a heartbeat. But right now, raid means more to me, so I’m Venthyr.
The percentage of damage done is deceptive as well. You don’t get the strength of Condemn until you subtract the Damage Execute would’ve done anyway, as well as the opportunity loss of taking Execute/Condemn buffing talents like Massacre over Frenzy.
You’re confusing a spell with a 1.5 min CD and one without any. I am aware of having the ability myself of execute and to be able to spread that via WW proc. However, if there’s really no contest for single target, that’s an issue as it is. To add to the AoE issue, you can tell me (And I would agree) other choices may perform well, they only perform well when able to be used off CD. In my case with AA, every minute and a half is a long time to use one spell. My execute/ww procs don’t stack up nearly in damage the way it does with condemn doing so feasibly on every pack without CD.
You can look me up all you want with my background (lol) but it won’t change the fact that the other 3 spells having a CD versus one without is pretty tough when they don’t outright beat out condemn in any specific spot in the game. If it’s crazy ST damage, fine, but when it is also just as lethal to spread it through WW without a CD, why bother going anything else?
I’d be fine with shortening the CD on the others to compete with it. I enjoy condemn, but I have a really bad feeling seeing it be by far the most popular ability/cov choice and there’s a reason for it.
I don’t see how it is too strong. It is the only cov ability that doesn’t generate rage. It also does less damage overall and makes it so you can’t fight cloak of shadows or AMS. It has its downsides for marginal damage gains.
Its gonna be fine, this is how warrior always starts every EXP, until we get into raid gear we struggle bus, then get stupid, then blizzard nerfs us becuase they forget how scaling works. Then we suck, then we get buffed slightly, and are on par, then blizzard forgets about us until the last raid, where the scaling catches up agian as we become gods and its at the end of the exp so blizzard stop caring.
On nercolords i think they need to make the banner an aura effect around the caster, and then make flesh craft insta cast.
Are you? Because you’re going “Omg, Condemn 45%!” and not considering at all what goes into that.
Condemn is best in ST, by roughly about 2%. That’s not substantial, particularly when it is not even 2nd best in Dungeons or PvP.
If you are not getting more damage out of that one use in the minute, or 90 second, period from that ability than others are from condemn, you’re playing wrong. This is a math question, with a right and wrong answer. The math was done. Play better if you’re getting a different answer. There’s plenty of people here that can help you do that.
They…do…outright beat Condemn. Condemn is viable in dungeons. It’s not great. You can get much better performance out of spear and AA.
No. They already outperform in multitarget situations. Even a slight buff to Spear or AA would make Condemn completely noncompetitive.
Chuckle about it all you want, but it is obviously the true factor here. You don’t know how to play very well. If I had logs on you, I could go into great detail on your every keypress what you’re messing up. I don’t, but I can still see tons of reasons why you’re performing poorly compared to other warriors. Your talent choices are a mess - you’ve taken Massacre despite not being Venthyr, you’re using Sudden Death over Fresh Meat in dungeons, you’re using Cruelty over Frothing Berserker in dungeons, you’re using Meat Cleaver at all. Furious Charge and Impending Victory? You have much better dungeon options in each row. Thank god you have the right legendary, but you made it for your back and not legs. You have no weapon enchants. You have no ring or chest enchants. You have entirely too much crit.
And that is all the wrong stuff from before you’ve even used the first ability. Without a shadow of a doubt, I can say that your rotation is a hot mess. This is why other warriors are beating you in dungeons, not Condemn.
I’m not going to argue with you anymore, the more you say the more you make abundantly clear how unqualified you are to seriously discuss these mechanics. When you decide you’re ready to improve, hit me up, I’ve helped similarly struggling players become competitive a number of times. Take care.
For anyone just tuning in TL;DR Condemn is fine, we’ve got an L2P issue.
I seriously think that Necrolord banner should be a carriable item that has a 40 yard range, because the nature of shadowlands fights seems to be constant movement, and who would have thought? An item you plant on the ground ain’t going to be good…,