Ya Know.. Looking Back...A lot Could Have Been Avoided if

[Thèón-emerald-dream (Thèón)]

@Sentenza-alexstrasza

seems no bueno

Seems muy bueno to me.

[Lethidox-tichondrius]

Sadly yea. It is what it is either way min maxers gonna do their thing.

[Bigspanky-area-52]

@Quizotic-stormrage

the same kind of argument

I am sorry but it is not.

@Bigspanky-area-52

You are perfectly ok with people wanting to play the game how they want. But if they propose that the way they enjoy the game and want to play, runs contrary to how you play the game, they are wrong and shouldnt be able to play that way.

Is NOTHING even remotely similar to

@Quizotic-stormrage

“i like X ability” but “i like Y storyline” but i can only chose one… Give me the option to choose both.

[Hezzlocks-khazgoroth (Hezzlocks)]

God forbid something in the game is implemented purely for aesthetic/lore/rp decisions and not actually be all about getting bigger numbers.

Covenants should have been purely cosmetic. Let rogues decide if they want to be sneaky Necrolord assassins, suave Venthyr dualists, or honorable Kyrian spies. Maybe a Night Elf Warrior wants to be with his kind in Ardenweald, while an Orc Warrior would prefer to revel in the Theatre of Pain.

This expansion lauded itself as being the best expansion to customize and express your character, introducing so many customization options, going so far as to include different races like Wildhammer Dwarves and Farraki Trolls etc… but then they make the biggest customization feature of the expansion be the borrowed power feature, holding so many lopsided powers and soulbinds, making the “meaningful choice” actually choosing between the covenant you like, and the covenant that will let you play the game.

I mean, do you really think nearly EVERY warrior went Venthyr because they like them? No, many went Venthyr because Condemn is the only thing preventing them being trash. And at the same time Protection Warriors go Kyrian, because that is pretty much THE tank covenant. And because they’re trash without Condemn, this pretty much means they can’t have a DPS offspec. It’s like how Artifact Weapons locked you into a spec at the start of the expansion except FAR more restrictive.

Say what you will about borrowed power systems, love it or hate it, but they should NEVER have been attached to the covenants.

[Quizotic-stormrage]

@Hezzlocks-khazgoroth

the covenant that will let you play the game.

so we’re counting playermade walls as a limiting factor now?

funny whenever holy priests had less then 1% playrate i was still able to find groups

[anon72158313]

Probably too many replies in the thread to read through, but through discussion there was a proposition made that I think would be best for all parties. Have skills that players can choose from but make them thematic to their choice of covenant.

[Hezzlocks-khazgoroth (Hezzlocks)]

Probably because Healers, like Tanks, are basically premium roles. People are far less picky with them than they are DPS specs, and for good reason. Try playing a Necrolord Hunter, any spec of your choice, see how many groups pass you over, and how much stronger a Night Fae Hunter of the same spec and the same gear as you is. The disparity between covenant abilities and soulbinds can be so incredibly high that it’s perfectly understandable when someone gets benched for being the wrong covenant.

And yes, “player made walls” is definitely a limiting factor because everyone knows, including blizzard, that people will choose the path of least resistance, and that means choosing the meta classes, specs, talents, covenants, etc

[Quizotic-stormrage]

@Hezzlocks-khazgoroth

And yes, “player made walls” is definitely a limiting factor because everyone knows, including blizzard, that people will choose the path of least resistance, and that means choosing the meta classes, specs, talents, covenants, etc

thats funny given how even Ion is playing with what the community considers to be a subpar covenant, and thats with clearing mythic raids.

its almost like peoples main hang ups are the players and not the actual game

[Hezzlocks-khazgoroth (Hezzlocks)]

@anon72158313

Probably too many replies in the thread to read through, but through discussion there was a proposition made that I think would be best for all parties. Have skills that players can choose from but make them thematic to their choice of covenant.

Problem with that is, Soulbinds are still part of the covenant system. It’s not just the ability, though that’s the bulk of the problem. Soulbinds are also a large contribution to it.

Compare Night Fae to Necrolord. Niyas mastery/health increase, burrs, and poison are much better than anything any of the Necrolord soulbinds have, and Koralyn vs Emeni? One gives you a large stat increase at the start of every pull, and with every add that spawns, while the other gives you a much smaller stat boost whenever something dies, aka, at the tail end of the pull when everything is dead.

Really the Covenant choice should have been purely cosmetic, while the borrowed power systems should have been moved elsewhere entirely

[Daark-cenarius]

@Bigspanky-area-52

And the meaningful choice argument is not a valid one at this point. Statistics have shown that the vast majority of players chose the covenant with the best ability for their preferred spec.

Statistics show that most players pick the OP specs/ classes. Does that mean class should be cosmetic?

@Bigspanky-area-52

Although for those who want to push the “meaningful choice” argument, I am willing to listen. Explain to me how our current covenant restrictions has ANY meaningful impact on our character outside the covenant ability.

It would have if they had all-in’d on covenants and the gamplay impact. But instead of getting something cool, deep or permanent, we get what we usually do. A fluff addition that never gets full developed because people just want to raid log fotm or have 16 mains.

[Bigspanky-area-52]

@Daark-cenarius

Does that mean class should be cosmetic?

No. Classes have been a part of WoW since day 1. Covenants are an expansion feature.

[Buz-alterac-mountains]

@Bigspanky-area-52

Ya know… looking back… a lot could have been avoided if

Blizzard just listened to majority of their Beta / Alpha testers. Yes Shadowlands would 20x better, if Blizzard wasn’t so stubborn.

@Bigspanky-area-52

They just gave the covenant abilities as a talent row. And allowed covenant swapping without penalty.

Seriously, Just scrapped the covenant ability conduits and Made the Covenant abilities, unlock through completing the campaign, or going to threads of fate.

Then let us switch between covenants at will. Keep the renown grind attached to individual covenants, to unlock the soulbinds, and soulbind trees/cosmetics. Keep the same anima sink in the individual covenants.

And the meaningful choice argument is not a valid one at this point. Statistics have shown that the vast majority of players chose the covenant with the best ability for their preferred spec.

Exactly.

But instead they did it the difficult way which is highly improbable to ever be “balanced” unless everything is nerfed to ground, thus barely worth pressing.

Anyways, #PullTheRipcord

[Thequixote-staghelm (Thequixote)]

I think they were showing off the box art before the expansion was in closed beta and it emphasized the unique covenants.

It’s no longer an iterative game play first company. It’s a waterfall process dictated by marketing, story, and finance.

[anon72158313]

Gotta draw the line somewhere. You might not like that proposition and only like your idea and that’s okay. I’m prepared to accept that there would be differences due to SB which is some OP seems cool with too.

[Galassin-stormrage]

My meaningful choice was to help the fairies. I got lucky with the ability. They didnt need to tie the ability down. I’m glad I picked night fae because of soul shape, the zone, and the story. The ability is really fun tho

[Rhay-queldorei (Rhay)]

Well, come on Galassin, you’re a druid. I felt there was an unspoken but very real contractual obligation on druids to go nightfae lol.

[Thorland-gnomeregan (Thorland)]

@Quizotic-stormrage

because it invalidates my choice, if my choice can be undone in 5 minutes was it really a choice in the first place?

Your choice is going to be invalidated the moment this expansion ends. Our choice was also invalidated the moment we were no longer the neutral leader of our class hall and stepped into a faction conflict knowing full well Azeroth needed to be saved. Most of these covenants don’t even represent Azeroth, so why would you lock yourself into any of them anyway?

[Sentenza-alexstrasza]

My Druid is Kyrian. I like the sort of “Guardian Soul” aspect of it, sort of a stoic watcher who shepherds his allies.

My only big disappointment with Covenants so far is the lack of Covenant forms for Druids. No Angel or Vampire Bear? Really? Come on Blizzard.

[Aydenn-silver-hand]

I agree with this. I got screwed because I main a resto/boomkin and alt a mage. My druid is Night Fae, both for lore and the ability. Ardenweald feels “druidy” and I’d have been pissed if the covenant ability were bad.

I didn’t want two fae toons so my mage is Venthyr/frost. She’ll never have as high DPS as she would have been Fae/fire. I should not have been punished with a substantive DPS penalty for not wanting to repeat content. If the abilities were separated from the covenant, even if it were a one-time choice, it would have been much better.

[Rhay-queldorei (Rhay)]

Wow, those are some crazy good ideas right there. I agree 100% why aren’t there more covenant themed skins. Do us druids only get something new once every 5 expansions?

I hate to admit this but I’d frikking stay subbed and go through every darn covenant on a new druid just to collect those skins. Call me crazy, but that would be a mighty nice little incentive.