WW needs attention! Stop ignoring it

Classes Monk
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Hi everyone!

I am creating this Topic following to my last thread about WW monks at 8.3
You can find my previous Topic here: WW Monk 8.3 - #21 by Maladàth-crushridge

As you all (may) know, WW monks are getting buffed around 3.5-4% in 8.3
In my last Topic, I mentioned how monks are going to lose damage because of the itemization in the upcoming patch, and a 3-4% buff won’t change our rankings in charts anymore.

Sadly, since then, no additional change has been made to the spec. We are going to face a Condensed Life Force major effect nerf coming in 8.3, which is direct nerf to WW monks as CLF is their “to-go” major essence.

Last two weeks, only 140 parses have been submitted for WW monks in Queen Azshara Mythic. (Which is INSANE as WW is only DPS spec for monks).
It is solid proof that serious guilds are NOT using WW monks.

In the last two weeks, out of 1735 WW monks who killed mythic Ashvane, only 249 WW monks made it to mythic Orgozoa. This means about 1 out of 6. This ratio is around 1 out of 2 for most of the other specs. (unholy DKs are about 1 out of 6 too, but if you consider frost DK which is about 2 out of 3, you can say half of the DPS DKs are making it to mythic Orgozoa if they have killed Ashvane)

EXCLUDING ZAQUL, monks are the WORST class for DPSing in every single fight. This is overall.
99th percentile for monks means absolute best parses as the number of total parses are low. Orgozoa to Queen, it means top 2-3 parses. Even knowing that monks are the worst DPS class in the game (excluding Zaqul)
This is while WW monks are considered as hard to learn hard to master spec (you may want to disagree, but first consider all the bugs related to WDP and SEF, a not spammable rotation, only one base defensive spell which you mostly need to use as an offensive spell)

Constantly, whenever we are talking about WW PvE, some people say that WW monks are great at M+. First of all, many PvE players don’t push keys. We don’t have any alternative spec, so if WW monk is bad at raiding, should we go and play a class that we don’t want to?
Other than that, according to raider io, only 3.1% of +20 keys DPSers were WW monks. This number is 4.3% for +15 keys.

We are moving to 8.3; we won’t have any bursty trinket to use with ToD anymore, our major essence is getting nerfed, BrM is getting nerfed which was our “safe” option to go into the guilds, and should be happy with our 3-4% Single Target buff which holds the spec where it is at the moment.
Since the beginning of BFA, we were not competitive in raiding (more than two years). How long would it continue?

Sadly, in the last topic, we tried to talk about “how to buff WW.” This is NOT the point. Even if we address the problems perfectly, it won’t have any effect until we can have a blue post on one of these topics to make sure that all these are being seen.

I feel that Blizzard just ignored WW. Please leave a post here and ask Blizzard to pay attention to our poor underperforming spec.

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One class always needs to be at the bottom. WW was broken in 7.3 and is now the worst dps class in 8.3. It is still fantastic in dungeons.

There needs to be a rework on WW AOE damage. It is impossible to balance WW in its current state unless you make FoF deal only 33% of damage to the non primary target. Would you enjoy this?

Can’t have it all, all the time.

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As mentioned above, WW is not popular in M+. Check out the percentages of +15 and +20 keys. I don’t understand why people are constantly saying that “monks are good for keys” while they can access the charts with a 2 minutes research. Simply go to raider io, go to statistics, and then claim that monks are “fantastic” in dungeons!!!

The statement that “it is impossible to balance WW” is a bit funny to me. There are many things that can fix WW damage on ST without breaking it. Check out my last topic and many other topics. For example, having melee attacks while casting FoF, more buff to Blackout Kick, buff to Tiger Palm, buff to first row talents and many else.

Fundamental changes and reworks are (of course) welcome! Not worth waiting for it a whole expansion for it though! There is no plan obviously. Blizzard had 2 years to announce it!

Yes, one class needs to be at the bottom at any given time. For a WHOLE expansion? no. That only reflects ignorance. If you want to leave a class at the bottom for 2 years, you shouldn’t make it in the first place!

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The thing which is kinda irritating is certain much more forgiving specs (I.e. class introduced in Legion and others) can pump out better numbers with much greater ease and they scale better. WW is not bad in M+ but given BM is broken currently there is usually no reason to have a second monk (WW would work better with Prot Warrior set up if min maxing I would guess).

Not even going to discuss rogues; with their mandatoryness (In. Utility) they should do like dumpster bin damage … just bitter lol.

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Just because their not popular doesn’t mean their not viable, they do just fine in keys, in fact its one of the few areas they really do well in. Also take into account that were one of the least played classes in the game, while simultaneously being one of the worst raiding dps classes in the game so yeah our player numbers are going to be quite low.

Edit: What wires said about BrM in m+ also contributes to not bring WW, most groups will never take more then one monk.

Edit2: Im not saying were in a great spot in everything else, but just in terms of M+ were fine in. Could we use some improvements? Sure, but to say we downright suck for M+ is just false information.

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The whole topic is mostly about WW single target and how we are suffering being at the dead bottom for more than 2 years.

We are “fine” in keys thanks to fast ramp up AoE kit that we have. I’m saying that we are not “fantastic” as people who are not familiar with competitive end-game content always say. We do have a good AoE kit and that’s it! We are “fine” but not “fantastic”

My intention of this topic is raiding. As I mentioned above, many of Mythic raiders are not key pushers. There must be “enough” buffs to our single target or this spec is dead (if not already dead)! People always misdirect the topics like this to M+ and PvP and saying WW is good on them. We are not a pure DPS class to just switch to another spec like mages, locks or rouges. If WW be THE WORST at raiding, DPS monk is dead at raiding. (reminds me of classic ret huh?)

The most funny thing is that we only got one blue post in the monks forum section, and that is for the karma nerf!!! I just hate that many people invest so much time making these kind of topics and talking about how WW can be fixed and Blizzard just decide to ignore monks!

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Yeah i agree, sadly i don’t think anything can really happen till SL. Right now were really stuck in a rut. Also its both amazing but also really blows that were the least played class out there, though thats one of the reason i enjoy monk so much. Doing well as a underdog class can be very rewarding. If only we weren’t forgotten about at blizzcon…

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I completely agree. I’m quite new but LOVE my WW monk. It has felt really rewarding learning a spec that has nuanced mechanics. However I can’t help but level up a DH and Hunter for 8.3. I’m probably going to shelf my WW till SL just because of how sad it feels having my 440 geared main be out DPS’d by my 410 DH. I love mythic+ but yeah I’m a lone monk in a sea of DH’s… thinking hard about jumping ship.

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There probably won’t be much mechanical changes with the spec until SL. That said, i don’t mind our rotation too much. It’s our CDs that need a little tuning. A GCD change here or there would do wonders for our opener, and actually fixing SEF AI would be nice or let us choose between a Serenity that can match output with SEF.

Mechanical changes aside, there’s a lot of simple changes blizzard could make to WW to make us more competitive for raiding. They just won’t. Don’t know why. The word “balance” comes to mind. Though, i don’t think numbers changes would let us outgun Outlaw rogues in M+ pack cleaving and they certainly won’t change up our usual battle plan in PvP.

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CLF is the go to essence for almost every dps spec in raid. It’s not a nerf to WW, it’s a nerf to everyone. A quick look on bloodmallet and only 3 of 24 dps don’t use it (Ret, Arms, Destro).

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Every dps, except 3, go down in % from 15+ to 20+. Outlaw goes from 9.7 to 20.1%. Havoc from 14 to 19%. Fire from 4.7 to 7.2%.

BrM goes from 20.1% at 15+ to 38% at 20+. As Cana said, you don’t bring a WW if you already have a BrM giving all those utilities. And since BrM nearly doubles, I’m suprised WW doesn’t get cut in half (like MW).

If BrM becomes less mandatory/desirable as a tank in raid (or M+), then WW might get that token monk spot for the mandatory buff. Mandatory buff is the reason Havoc/Warrior always has a raid spot. There are roughly equal monks, demon hunters and warriors in Azshara logs; it’s just most of the monks are tanks and almost all DHs/Warriors are dps.

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Brm will be still in a great spot. This is what we call a paper nerf

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I do agree with that! It is not “just WW”.
Although the nerf is in the add damage (by making it attack less frequent). It means the specs like WW that were using it only for the add damage and couldn’t line up their CDs with the haste buff will suffer more (Again, I’m not saying it’s just WW, it’s bigger nerf to all the specs that stack vers and use add damage because of their CDs!)

That’s the sad part about our raid physical damage taken debuff as WW. BrM would always be mandatory for progress. It’s just how stagger works. Maybe in M+ WW be more desirable, but not in raiding progression.

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Gladiators Medallion/KR trinket

rest i agree though

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Maybe he should have said broken burst trinkets

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2 rogues + ww is best. 2 group stealth, +dmg phys attacks

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This is funny how people completely miss the point and lead these kind of topics to a “showcase” of their so called knowledge!

Nobody here is asking about best team on M+ or if WW is good in M+ or not! Try to read the topic or at least the title, then post such a claim that you perhaps saw on a twitch stream!

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We do need attention definitely.

Although you did bring up a few stats about WW in M+ in a couple of paragraphs in your original post so maybe you ought to expect some people to focus on a couple of those points. That being said, I would say our damage is acceptable for M+ but we have no gimmick that makes people wanna take us more than another dps. We aren’t range, we dont have lust, no brez, no cloak of shadows, no dramatic amounts of self healing or healthstone production. They either need to increase damage somewhere that makes us the go to for some purpose in M+ or give us a new ability that isnt ring of peace; something baseline that makes us useful.

Some of those points can also be said about raiding and why serious guilds are not taking WW monks (except for ghuun, which was the last time I felt actually needed for once).

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That one ability we use to have I think it was zen meditation, redirected all dmg the raid took to us. I think that would go a long way to helping us.

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FOF dmg really needs to be higher if monks can’t auto during it.