Monks are not the only one being ignored. Enh shamans have been nerfed into the dregs by blizzard. I will be honest I was looking at my guild raid attendance and one of the few classes we do not have is monk so I was thinking about rolling a ww monk. But if its going to be Enh shaman 2.0 then I will find another class.
Except they aren’t. They are pretty easy to learn and master. Once you “master” a basic priority list, they are roughly as easy as a demon hunter.
If you want to buff WWs, then they just need some number tuning.
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It’s definitely an easy class to learn, but it does have it’s nuances which it can do niche things that a lot of people just dont do.
So the adage hard to master is correct, but really only in pvp. Aside for working around a few bugs not much with pve
It is insane that you compare WW monks to Demon Hunters…
Every single class in the game is a priority list. If you master that priority list, that’s it!
You haven’t given any proof for your words, but I will do it for mine.
Defensives: Only 1 baseline, karma, which you need it for damage if you want to stay competitive, so if you want to “master” WW, you should say 0 baseline. You can have another one with a talent choice. As a melee having only 1 defensive through talents is hilarious!
DPS CDs: SEF, ToD. ToD is an 8-second cd WITH global cooldown which means you have about 7 seconds to use it! It does damage at the END of the 8 seconds so if you need to know if your target will be alive in 8 seconds or not!
SEF is a 15-second cd that requires 2 global cooldowns. why 2? if you don’t recast it, try FoF while your target is moving!!! They require refocusing which needs another global cd whenever their target dies! You cannot even despawn them after the WDP bug so-called “solution”
Master tricks: WDP triple cast (WDP bug)!!! (which I bet you don’t even know of). spinning crane animation cancel. Rising Sun triple cast (kinda same as WDP bug). FoF cd reduction while handling your hit combo stacks (using your movement ability, Flying Serpent Kick, Chi wave, ToD etc not to drop hit combo and not waste chi or energy while spamming blackout). SEF and Spinning Crane stacks.
Bugs that you MUST avoid: WDP, FoF, RK all in cd. SEF FoF cancels. SEF Spinning Crane cancels. In instances like Tol Dagor, RoP knock up bug.
These are just some of the things to “master” WW without even taking items and essences into account.
There is NO spec with such a kit that has no baseline def, a buggy kit, and so many learning curves to stay competitive. Some people used to hate DH momentum build for the “movement sacrifice for damage” back in early legion, while this is one of the most basic sacrifices for WW monks.
Just to mention, I’ve been playing every single DPS specs other than ret pallies and mages and with WW I’m currently rank 42 world WW in mythic overall. So I probably can give a better explanation of “mastering” WW than the other WW monks minus 42 !!!
What you “think” is “mastering WW” is not even close to what it should be! So please do not compare it to DHs :))))))) In the meantime fury warriors… :))))))
Number tuning is the LAST thing that WW monks needs. And that’s why blizzard is avoiding WW monk tuning. For example with this RK buff, good WW monks can destroy arena with triple RK and RK azerite. WDP and FoF buffs will lead to the M+ dominance of WW monks. The only spells that can get buffed for WWs to fix their low performances are tiger palm, serenity, ToD, karma (which they justed nerfed because ppl were crying over the need of def cd sacrifice for damage), and blackout.
Hard to master are both on PvE and PvP, and if you think they are easy to master, go ahead and play WW and see how far you will go in either PvE or PvP compared to 10-20% top WWs.
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Congrats on getting carried as a bottom tier dps. You just sound like someone who wants their class to seem difficult to others, when it’s really not.
WW could probably use a few things reworked, but overall, they are still pretty simple and are farily slow paced. They are like the ret paladin of energy classes. Button bloat !=difficulty.
I have nothing else to say to you! Putting a good 15 minutes to write you all that and you still talk with no point! I already gave you everything you need for a realization but a for a toxic person who calls hard works “getting carried”, reasoning would never be enough 
Anyways, this topic has nothing to do with difficulty of WW. You criticized what I said, I gave you proof and explanations. If you want to continue, criticize with reason, if not post something related to this topic. I won’t continue feeding your toxicity.
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Difficulty aside (a very subjective topic to non-elitists), we still need attention.
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Yet you drone on some more anyways lol…
I play a warrior, monk and demon hunter at high levels. You regurgitated information that is already widely known.
You have one, you just choose to use it offensively. It’s kind of like playing a DH when you pop blur before eyebeam+iris nuking down adds that spawn because you know you’re going to pull aggro… That’s using blur offensively and technically makes it a dps cooldown because if you didn’t pop it, you’d pull aggro and die.
There’s a few bugs, sure, but they aren’t game breaking. Most of what you’re describing are QoL things and ways to squeeze out another percent or two more dps.
Again, not really. They are a very slow paced spec. Go play a fury warrior and miss a GCD here or there while your haste is consistently in the 80-100% range without hero, and watch your dps plummet. You miss one ability in your priority list and it gets everything out of sync with each other and takes an amount of time to get rolling again. Monk plays at a tiny fraction of that speed. On paper, fury has a less complicated set of buttons for dps, sure, but in practice, it’s far more punishing than WW.
You didn’t give any proof, you just said the most difficult color is purple. See how silly that sounds?
No, what’s toxic is when someone gets on here trying to brag, humblebrag and/or get people to look them up so they can indirectly brag, all under the guise of “Zomg gais WW is so hard n broken n taykez much werk.” That is toxic behavior…
I’m just gonna have to say it, bring us back to wod talents
(Chi explosion was bangin)
Also liked sef better as a utility and not a cd - would be nice to see spiritual focus replaced with something like:
Converts to old sef, reduces cd on tod by 1s per 2 chi and tod hits 2% harder.
My opinion is that since we lost abilities like chi explosion and strike of the windlord our magic damage output that gave us a nice little spike outside of cds is gone and making us fall a little flat compared to other classes.
Monk isn’t the most complicated class and I enjoyed the resource management with sef and chi explosion - it felt like you were lining up some really nice combos, and similarly with strike of the wind lord.
We get the combo feel from whirling dragon punch but the damage just isn’t there right now. I strongly believe they could just buff the first row of talents and that would fix a lot.
If they beefed up the damage on the first row and maybe baked in some kind of energy/chi gen on the other talents on the row it would show significant results.
Something like:
Eye of the tiger combined with our old talent power strikes - a few of you may remember the brief period in alpha/beta where our talent actually looked good.
They beefed up power strikes with a damage increase on tiger palm and had the extra chi proc - I feel like if you were to add that to eye of the tiger it would definitely make an impact.
Chi wave could have more bounces or hit harder - maybe have an energy proc on it.
A flat damage bonus to chi wave or a cd that scales with haste.
I would love to see the return of chi explosion in place of either rushing jade wind or serenity.
Rushing jade wind would hold up better if it replaced spinning crane kick and did more damage on its first tick and then a normal spinning crane kicks overtime damage.
Here’s just some ideas that would make our spec come to life a little bit, I know that we aren’t as flashy and edgy compared to dh and dk but I think that everyone would agree that monks are a lot of fun. Let’s all try to remember that at the end of the day these forums are for coming together to try and have our opinions heard and respected. Let’s try to get this class back to where we all know it can be!
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I appreciate the time and thinking you’ve put on this post!
This is a really nice and useful post!
I think the same. First-row talent at the moment doesn’t really feel like “talent row”. It hardly provides any damage boost to our kit, the healing is just so low to even get considered, the utility can be interesting for hit combo management and a little bit of chi management but not huge.
Personally, I think rushing jade in that row is just a “bad idea”. It does line up with “wind walker” fantasy but the 1 chi cost on such a low cd is too much compared to the damage that other two options on that row can provide.
Also, even spec fantasy-wise, it is not better than those two other options.
I think rushing jade would be a good talent choice on another row but again 1 chi cost + a gcd on that cd is just not that appealing.
I do not agree with the removal of serenity tho. Serenity is many people’s favorite and the gameplay impact is quite noticeable. It is not being used that much atm because it’s weak compared to WDP. WDP should be a baseline (as many people thinks the same)
Again thanks for the time and thinking you’ve put on that post!
I think wdp would be quite nice baseline, I mostly do pve as bm now because ww just doesn’t feel good to play anymore, at least from how I would like it to feel.
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I really wish they would have kept it at what we had at start of bfa. I bet with current lvls we can get haste to we could have just left it on, and would have given more value to higher haste lvls.
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How about you post on them then
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Pointing out your credentials is pretty common practice when making claims on a certain topic. Again, the main point here is that WW are in an unfavorable spot.
And your example about DH defensive cooldowns also boils down to “they can just wait a moment to start dpsing” which does not actually make it an offensive cooldown (nice try). WW can use their karma offensively but even then, we wont be doing nearly as much damage as any other classes at the moment and in high end content, its only serendipitous if we get to use it offensively as mechanics get more strenuous.
Regardless of the argument you two are trying to have, no one can deny that WW monks have been on the back burner for awhile now and need attention somewhere. Feel free to make constructive contributions if you’d like.
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I’m going to disagree. It’s easy enough to learn a priority list because that is essentially a top to bottom run down of the highest DPET abilities. Every class has one and its pretty straight forward. Not all abilities hit the same.
What takes time to learn are the things like use Rising Sun Kick before FoF or how and when to plan resources for individual target count breakpoints. When mobs dying inside of a FoF channel is a better or worse option than a SCK cast.
With Havoc very few things change and the rotation is pretty static. You might alter a few things after the first time you kill a boss but from then on your just repeating and executing the same timings.
The learning curve for specs in bfa is not that steep anywhere but theres a big difference between mastering a spec and just being top dps in your group.
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Nah, I don’t give into the peer pressure of posting on mains just to prove a point. I’d rather not be stalked by forum incels.
I have a friend that raids mythic EP that parses in the +95th percentile on almost every fight and he uses a custom coded pixel scanner to play by pressing one button. It accounts for almost all variables and dynamically accounts for things like pooling resources and cooldowns. Should I take his word just because he parses high?
No, the waiting a moment part cuts down on dps. Also, good luck on skittish weeks in high keys if you’re not using blur offensively.
They reigned supreme for a while. Blizzard likes to rotate out classes/specs because new FOTM specs=people play longer due to leveling/gearing a new character.
If they wanted to, they could make monks top dps right now by bumping up all damage by 15-20%. However, they choose not to do so.
It’s also possible that they have intentionally kept them low because they don’t want a ton of people playing them right now while they think of how to rework them. Having hundreds of thousands of people playing a “broken” class and complaining about it is far more pressure than a small minority doing so.
Except when you look at the priority list for monks, RSK is always above FoF. All of these things make +/-3% difference in dps in higher level content usually (mythic EP and keys in the 15+ range). Havoc has to pool and choose between abilities as well. If you’re fighting a pack of mobs and eyebeam is coming up in seconds, you don’t want to blade dance before eyebeam(assuming you have demonic). That way you can squeeze more of them in during your shorter cooldown Touch of Death, I mean metamorphasis+furious gaze haste proc. Yeah, almost every other spec in the game has to sometimes pool cooldowns/resources.
Same with WW. Again, this is just people trying to make their “gimp” specs seem harder to play so that it tricks their own mind into thinking that’s why they play it… for the challenge! It’s like a choice-supportive bias or stockholm syndrome for specs in WoW.
Rising Sun Kick is not listed above Fists of Fury for Windwalker, its just something we tell people to make sure they’re not delaying their cast of FoF because of resources and to make sure they’re not missing total casts of RSK by waiting 1-2 seconds each overlap.
These are the situations that happen where you have to explain to people that without haste every third cast will overlap with FoF and how too many BoKs will cause you to delay either the 4th or the 5th cast after that, etc.
Having a general idea of what to do is not the same as knowing what to do and just learning the priority list is not the same as learning how to play a spec. Once people start writing them off as “It’s just a 3% difference” the point of all of it is pretty much missed anyway.
Havoc has to pool and choose between abilities as well. If you’re fighting a pack of mobs and eyebeam is coming up in seconds, you don’t want to blade dance before eyebeam(assuming you have demonic). That way you can squeeze more of them in during your shorter cooldown Touch of Death, I mean metamorphasis+furious gaze haste proc. Yeah, almost every other spec in the game has to sometimes pool cooldowns/resources.
Eyes of Rage / Demonic Appetite / Chaotic Transformation & Demonic play the game for you. There is zero variance in what abilities you use and you only follow “Hit as many targets as possible”.
It’s hard for you to pick and choose with a cooldown reset on 2 abilities, a full resource bar going into meta, and then additional CDR on Soul Fragments.
Which is also an odd comparison to a ToD window…
Havoc meta windows are not remotely close to SEF, Stormbringer /w BoTE, Outlaw w/ BoTE, Shrapnel Bomb carves, or anything else honestly because Havocs does not have a ST → AoE / Cleave transition.
When your rotation at 1 target is identical to the rotation at 10 targets you are not on the list of specs I’d tell a new player to avoid until they’re more familiar with the game. Even learning the momentum build is something I’d consider easier than any other specs nuances.
I probably shouldn’t ask but how is Windwalker a “gimp spec” this time…
It’s always nice to go around arguing the difficulty of something when other people have already done the math and made the decisions for you.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/QuaintNeedyCapeghostfrog-size_restricted.gif
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We are just discussing a video game, you lose credibility with the ad hominem.
So he cheats
When monks have been at the top we were still the lowest representation
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According to AMR:
~https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory/rotation/amrmonkwindwalkermain?spec=MonkWindwalker&version=live
According to SIMC:
- actions.st=whirling_dragon_punch
- actions.st+=/rising_sun_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains,if=chi>=5
- actions.st+=/fists_of_fury,if=energy.time_to_max>3
- actions.st+=/rising_sun_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains
- actions.st+=/rushing_jade_wind,if=buff.rushing_jade_wind.down&active_enemies>1
- actions.st+=/reverse_harm,if=chi.max-chi>=2
- actions.st+=/fist_of_the_white_tiger,if=chi<=2
- actions.st+=/energizing_elixir,if=chi<=3&energy<50
- actions.st+=/spinning_crane_kick,if=combo_strike&buff.dance_of_chiji.react
- actions.st+=/blackout_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains,if=combo_strike&(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains>3|chi>=3)&(cooldown.fists_of_fury.remains>4|chi>=4|(chi=2&prev_gcd.1.tiger_palm))
- actions.st+=/chi_wave
- actions.st+=/chi_burst,if=chi.max-chi>=1&active_enemies=1|chi.max-chi>=2
- actions.st+=/tiger_palm,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains,if=combo_strike&chi.max-chi>=2
- actions.st+=/flying_serpent_kick,if=prev_gcd.1.blackout_kick&chi>3,interrupt=1
As you can see there, it’s saying that you use RSK if your debuff is about to fall off or if you’re chi capped, then it says you should use FoF if there is more than three seconds until energy cap, then it says to use RSK.
Not really, it’s just a shorter cooldown version of ToD. Pop something and cram as much into the time window as possible. Same applies to almost every single other dps spec. ToD isn’t special…
This isn’t supposed to be a “Zomg havoc is herdr den WW” debate. This is a debate of WW not being as complex and hard to play as people claim it is. WW plays at a fraction of the APM of most other dps specs. That gives you lots of time to think and plan out.
It’s not an ad hominem, it’s a fact because it’s happened before, multiple times. Oh wait, that’s confirmation bias…
Yep, and Blizzard can’t catch him due to it being his own code and the fact that he still has to press one key to perform one action. It just rebinds his button to press the correct key for him.
Apprently you never played MoP. Monks were insanely powerful then in all specs and still had a fairly decent adoption rate for being brand new. It usually takes some time for people to want to make and push an alt of a new class. Yes, everyone had DHs because they started out high level.
The Simcraft APL does not run down that list as if it were steps to be completed in order. Each time the APL performs an action it snaps back to the top of the list. I didn’t write this expansions version of the APL with Fist of the White Tiger and Reverse Harm but outside of those two abilities the APL will not spend correctly if a hard value is not set for when to Rising Sun Kick.
The first line your reading is skipped if you do not have 5 chi. It exists as a rule to ensure that when you have a RSK / FoF overlap it casts Rising Sun Kick first at 5 chi, like I explained above.
actions.st+=/rising_sun_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains,if=chi>=5
The second line of Rising Sun Kick below Fists of Fury is what ensures that RSK is otherwise cast on cooldown
actions.st+=/rising_sun_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains
and this line is what ensures that Blackout Kick is not being overcast in between those windows.
The full sequence can be read as;
Blackout kick if
- The cooldown of Rising Sun Kick is greater than 3 seconds with ≥ 3 Chi which ensures that if a Blackout Kick is cast that FoF can still be cast as soon as its off cooldown and Rising Sun Kick will not be brought to a cooldown that’ll be within FoF channel.
- The Cooldown remaining on Fists of Fury is ≥ 4 seconds with more than 4 chi. This will allow a BoK here to prevent overcapping on Chi when you Tiger Palm.
- Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick was not the last ability used so that Combo Strikes is not broken.
actions.st+=/blackout_kick,target_if=min:debuff.mark_of_the_crane.remains,if=combo_strike&(cooldown.rising_sun_kick.remains>3|chi>=3)&(cooldown.fists_of_fury.remains>4|chi>=4|(chi=2&prev_gcd.1.tiger_palm))
The APL will then snap back to the top after the conditional is met and run down the list of everything again. This time the BoK conditional should fail, it’ll move to Tiger Palm, and the result should be
4 Chi → Blackout Kick → Tiger palm → 5 Chi → RSK → FoF
When I had written it initially it was very messy. Fjin helped me clean it up a bit but you have Slappa, Hinalover, Juko, WizardDog, and Babylonious to thank for this cleaner version. No comment on AMR they probably just poached it like they usually do.
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