Wow Raiding Culture is Toxic and not Rewarding

It. Is. Not. Legitimate. Find some people at your skill level and experience and play with them. You are NOT (sad that I have to keep stressing this) entitled to the time and presence of others whether you’re applying to their group or having them apply to yours.

I honestly don’t even know what this means. I’ve never argued that io measured skill. I didnt even write anything lengthy so I dont know how you could have misconstrued that so badly. You sure do seem to have a lot to say, but maybe reading what others say before launching into these diatribes might help all of us get along better.

Your sentence structure literally two lines above this is frankly in direct contradiction to this.

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I agree actually. Like I could be playing simply what’s fotm strong right now and out dps everyone with much higher score in io and ilvl and it doesn’t mean anything.

No one is talking about new players running +10s. I’m talking about low-mid mythics being gated with having minimum 190 ilvl and checked for io score. That is a gatekeeping problem with a certain demographic of players in the community. And again I can’t state this enough; this doesn’t affect me because I’m above 190 ilvl and I can get into these groups easy. The thing that’s jarring is low-mid mythics having same requirements as high mythics

You’re right. The “gatekeeping problem” is ENTIRELY a matter of perception.

As a not well geared rogue, I get turned down from about 95% of groups I apply to, and there are many reasons for this. What do I do? Play with friends, make my own group, or do something else. Crying on the forums for Blizzard to force people to bring me along when they normally wouldn’t, is not a real solution to this perceived problem.

Crying for Blizzard to hide my gear and experience so group leaders cannot make informed decisions is even worse.

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sorry, i don’t understand… why is that an issue? an ilvl 175 player with no m+ history has no business pugging a +8 anyway.

Don’t understand why you keep telling me to find people at my skill level or stuff like it’s my problem. I play with people with lower/nonexistent io score and I play with people with lower ilvl all the time and don’t have major problems. Once in a while., I get terrible players but that’s not the defining experience in pugs.

I have no problem getting into any groups unless they’re specifically looking for a class/spec for team comp. Me agreeing with OP has suddenly validated people into saying “Well you need to git gud, improve ur io score, and not get carried” I mean some of yall not arguing in good faith and just proving/driving the OP’s point home. I think the only person arguing reasonably is Pyri

Sorry I edited that comment; was stated completely wrong.
“The thing that’s jarring is low-mid mythics having same requirements as high mythics”
I was trying to highlight the opposite.

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They aren’t gated. The term “gated” here means “leaders get to choose their own groups” and you should also know that queueing for DPS, you should expect to get turned down 95-98% of the time, on a sheer numbers basis, alone.

I wish I could link old credits. Do old mythic boss kills count for getting into a pug heroic on the second and third week of a new raid. What about an old 2.8k io score in 8.3 for getting into M+? The problem I have is the hard reset on most of the ways to decide if people could clear content.

This doesn’t mean you know the mechanics of current fights but it does say something about your ability to play at a high level.

Nothing more frustrating then spending twice as much time applying to groups then you do actually running content. And for raids its far longer as people don’t decline and you limited to 5 apps. I think it was thurs that I spent 5 hours applying to any group at all for raiding, including fresh groups that would force me to rekill a boss. I created my own group and didn’t get a single healer or tank for over 40 min.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen the game in this bad of a state. Heck it only took me two weeks in BFA to get a 2k io. Now I’m stuck at 500 with no way to advance.

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Old mythic boss kills would be useless here.

If you are applying to a ToP+8, and have a ToP+7 timed, you’re good to go. If you have a +2 timed and that’s it…now we might have an issue (I don’t PuG M+ often by the way, too much hassle)

Having a great IO score from another season is pertinent information, however, as it shows you have a skill set to time multiple dungeons in a group setting. That can all be checked on the IO site, already though.

Rolling a pure DPS class, this is entirely your own fault. There are 50:1 DPS. Everyone does it because it is easy and requires no responsibility.

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Sorry you keep speaking for other people who totally aren’t you, so I was addressing them in my posts to you.

Sorry, this is disingenuous garbage. I have never said its a “gid gud” issue. I’m not good. This is entirely a “stop feeling entitled to other people’s time” issue. The OP sounds like a troll and you trying to reinforce what he said sure isn’t making me interested in having a real conversation with you. So have a day mate good luck championing the plight of the poor and disenfranchised noobies, who totally can’t speak for themselves and would be world first raiders if only that nasty io wasn’t keeping them down.

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Wow, now there is the truth.

:joy:

I should have clarified that it’s not you specifically so I apologize about the gimped communication there. It’s the general response you get for agreeing with the issue. I care about this problem because I’m trying to get friends to do mythics with me and some of them are good and some of them aren’t. Obviously for those that aren’t good, we spam low level mythics and hope they learn the mechanics. For players that are good, only have limited time to play, none of this is helpful.

Why would you want to say negative things to people? I have never had anyone treat me bad enough where I even thought of saying such a thing to them in that game. Everyone greets each other nicely, Plenty of great conversations and its just a enjoyable experienece

Wow its nothing but wtf are you doing, Vote kick this guy, kys, hurry up and pull. Gotta have IO score of 900 for mythic 2s. Like its just a terrible experience. This is why FF14 is doing better than wow.

lol bro FF14 tanks complain about tank anxiety and people report you for trying to give advice; that community isn’t that much bettter. But I agree the kys, vote kick this guy for face pulling 1 mob and wasting 2 seconds is just stupid

I hear this a lot, but WoW’s perceived problems are only voiced and discussed on this forum, which is very negatively biased. Most of the problems aren’t actual problems of design, but rather entitlement of the player base. So, in conclusion, WoW is doing just fine, and the whiny player base makes the “problems” seem far worse than they are.

If you could just eliminate the posts about people wanted to get carried into higher level content that they can’t do, there would be no complaints in GD.

If they hadn’t completely gutted prot warrior I’d be tanking. Its a lesson devs seem to have to learn every couple of expansions.

And of course dps has responsibility. I have to stun, tranq shot enrages and heals, tar trap/concussive shot adds (bears pop into mind first), Binding shot spirits. I tend to do the maze in mist while in combat and keeping up dps and watching for directional abilities like breath. You have to constantly use defensive cd’s to soak as much damage as possible to help healers. I also usually mark kill priority.

Why it shows the same thing old M+ scores show. That you can manage mechanics and you have the skill to do enough dps required for mythic kills.

Particularly if your applying for the first couple of bosses of heroic. Which is extremely easy content.

I wish it worked this way. I have almost every dungeon at a +6 timed now and still have a hard time getting into +5-+6’s and have only ever been able to get into a single +7 that failed.

And even +2’s get declined as some people are going back and running them for some of their missing gear as loot drops are now so scarce.

Kind of, but when you mess up in a 5man group, 20% of the group just messed up. When you mess up in a mythic raid, 5% of the raid messed up. They aren’t exactly equivalent, hence the importance of a tool like IO.

And getting declined for +2s, I get it. As soon as you post a key, 50 DPS (many of whom are 200+ and have massive IO scores) show up in the queue. I will take them. It is what it is.

Yeah forums typically have higher density of negativity/complaints. It does make regulars who read through it feel like it’s just white noise and oftentimes unwarranted. But there are some valid complaints among all the BS as well. If people want to argue and complain that raiding culture is toxic and unrewarding, they have the freedom to state that complaint. You also have the freedom to disagree but a lot of the arguing points fall flat based on the points we’ve spoken about how IO score and ilvl min is not perfect. Obviously no system is perfect but they’re so far from perfect. Even veterans coming back to the game who are probably the best players you’ve ever seen will have gimped io score.

And there seems to be a growing group of people having high ilvl/io score but are just terrible/bad. Like they bought boosts/carries through raids/mythics. I mean how badly WoW tokens got deflated kinda implies people may be whaling and how lucrative it is to sell runs. Like hell my guild may start doing it

I agree with most of what you said, but this is not a problem. The “gimped” IO score only means they HAVE NOT done the content at an appropriate level. That’s it. That is all an IO score reflects, and nothing more. If they are returning to the game, and haven’t timed dungeons, they SHOULD have a lower score. Being good in BC doesn’t mean you can jump into +8s now.

It comes down to group leaders having the freedom to invite who they want.

Since we all have the option to make our own group, it is not a problem.

My problem is the cumulation of several things happening at once.

  • Loot drops being so low and random that I can’t increase my ilvl.

  • Gutting prot warrior so I can’t rely on tanking ques.

  • Less tanks and healers in general increasing the que time. Not only are there less tanks and healers but those that were tanks and healers are now dps.

  • The hard reset of IO so people can’t tell how good or bad of a player you are.

  • Spec/covenant balance being so bad that people make extreme assumptions based off rankings only.

  • The same problem people have always complained about while pugging. You need the io score before you can get into a key level but you have to run that key level to get into groups.

  • Little to nothing to do outside of M+ and raiding.

  • The cost of consumables is pretty insane right now. I spent 30k just to run M+ this week for 0 loot.

What I realized this week is I’m getting frustrated and not having fun anymore. Furthermore its a complete waste of my time when there are several other things I could and probably should be doing instead. Like devoting time to making youtube tutorials on programming to earn extra income. The game for me has become not about the fun of hanging out with friends as they all left nor the challenge, but a soul draining grind. My normal job is already soul draining enough I don’t really want to pay for the privilege of it as well. So I’m out.

As someone else said, I’m making wow subs more meaningful because there will be less of them. If this logic works for loot I’m not sure why it shouldn’t apply to this as well.

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