WoW killed itself for raiders over 7 years

Community General Discussion
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Do you have any idea how few paid monthly subscribers the game would have if 75-90% of those subscribers never got to even see an endgame that felt like a completion point and the resolution of the story except on Youtube or in a secondhand “oh here’s the cinematic that other people got to see” recap?

Which is really more of a “this is why we have LFR” argument, but there are plenty of people who argue that “tourist mode” where people get “participation trophies” and “welfare gear” shouldn’t exist.

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Bottom line: m+ players should be able to keep up with raiders in terms of power. Until that happens, m+ is just another raider side activity.

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End game is entirely subjective. There are people whose end game is farming stuff from 3 expansions ago.

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M+ players are pretty much guaranteed a 252 upgrade every week with a ton of 246 valor upgrades, which is more gear acquisition than raiders get for slightly lower average item level. Where are you getting this idea that they don’t get to keep up with raid gear?

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I really don’t know what you are talking about here. Every single pathway you mentioned has gear rewards at the end.

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  1. LFR exists for this reason, so what are you saying?

  2. If you think the raiding community is a minority, boy do I have some news to break to you about how many people still care about the story

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Well, mythic raiders are already 250+ and even the luckiest m+ player can’t possibly be that high. It won’t be until week 20 that the lucky m+ players catch up in item level. Base item level, mind you, because there’s no m+ Equivalent to dom sockets. Blizzard devs (and GD raiders) seem to be bad at math.

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You’re not really looking at it right though, because raiders also do M+. Of course someone who does both is going to have more gear than someone who just does one.

I’m 249 and half my gear comes from M+/the M+ vault. If I didn’t do M+ and only did the raid, I’d be like 243 or 244… which is definitely lower than the iLvl you can get from doing M+

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Did you know there are 2 other difficulties easier than heroic? There definetly arnt people who just do those and don’t touch heroic… /S your arguments are cherry picked data please stop before you embarrass yourself

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So if they pushed out more dungeons and raids there would be more legacy content for others to do in the future? Shocking…

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Pretty mindblowing stuff isnt it

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Yet they constantly complain about “welfare epics” and say things like “LFR should have no loot”.

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What’s amusing is people trying to paint massive amounts of people into 1 category of “raider” or “casual”

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On the contrary. I’ve been around for the highs and the lows, and i’ve observed. LFR was the start of the slow inevitable decline of WOW. Before that only a small portion of the playerbase got to fully experience the game (raids mostly) and DESPITE this, the game was flooded with people. Yes the GOOD players had special things but this was before todays you showed up so you get the special reward! mentality.

LFR gave people the impression they deserved something for nothing.

The removal of master loot exacerbated this issue and made it much harder for the player base to combat. 99% of whiners (there were SOME ninjas but so rare its not even worth mentioning) literally argued that since they went to the raid they should have equal rights to the loot. Some of you defended them, despite their terrible performance (which they often admitted to themselves.) Again, a participation trophy. 15 years ago they’d be laughed out of the forums. “You turned Onny into the raid and you want the helm? You’re lucky they didn’t black list you.”

Now it’s all me me me. Don’t waste my time, 3 chest the key as you carry me. How dare people use raider IO or AOTC!!! Blizz force them to invite me! It’s my loot dont’ bother me about it but i’ll ask you everytime something drops for you!

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This was always a problem. Blizzard just finally decided to throw them a bone.

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No, LFR gave raiders the impression that casuals were getting gear, and those raiders hated the idea, because they were no longer special in their purples. Its why dungeons no longer even drop purples. They used to, but now its blues with the same item levels. To make raiders feel more special.

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Incorrect.

You can get (and I have in fact gotten) 3 Great Vault options that are the same slot as each other and/or the same slot as what you already have and/or the same slot as your legendary.

Only on the first week of the season are you 100% guaranteed an upgrade. The chance of getting an upgrade decreases with each subsequent week, particularly once you have at least several slots at 252. This is why the Great Vault (severely timegated RNG reward) is worse than bonus rolls with loot actually dropping from content.

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What? Dungeons drop purples?

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As a population, mythic raiders have better gear faster than mythic plus players. Players who can do both have an edge over either, like you pointed out, BUT it’s a whole lot easier for a mythic raider to jump into m+ than it is for an m+ player to jump into a mythic raid.

You’re also correct in where the breakpoint is. Heroic “raiding”. Probably the largest concentration of players who fancy themselves end game wow players, full of players who were OK with second best. Then m+ came along an no ligers without a raid group pushed them to third best, and all hell broke loose.

Graph it out if you don’t believe me. I did 39 m+ last week. I think I’m over 20 this week. So let’s use me as an example, and say I average 25-30 m+ every week. I can expect 1 252 piece every week, that has a diminishing chance to be an upgrade as the season progresses. Basically, the number of non-252 slots over total slots chance, with 3 chances at a time (because naturally, I will unlock every option). By the end of the season, I’m lucky to get an upgrade every 3-4 weeks. Assuming I start on week one, there is no built in catchup for m+.

With raiders, the math works out a little backwards. In the beginning, their chance at an upgrade is essentially equal to their personal loot chance, BUT, as the raid progresses, the chance at an upgrade increases because the raid can trade the loot pool. That means that a raider joining late in the tier can roll a greater than 100% chance of getting loot on a given boss (being passes loot that the rest of the group already has). It has built in catchup, and the curve looks different. Where the m+ loot curve starts out steep then plummets, the raid curve starts slower then ramps up extremely fast.

The end result is between week ~6 and week ~15, raiders have a tier of item level supremacy on top of their special gems.

I don’t expect them to slow down mythic raiders loot, but I would like them to speed up m+ loot so that this gap doesn’t exist. Things like being able yo trade a week of bad loot. For example, if I don’t like any of the choices in my box, let me give it to someone else in my guild. Let me unlock a second pick given enough m+ runs (say 25 or 30). And I would love to be able to add dom sockets to gear or just disable them outside of the raid entirely.

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How do you do 40 m+ and not go insane? Holy crap I’m so bored with the dungeons at this point.

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