Your acting like i’m making you look unreasonable with my points. Just because other people missed the point doesn’t mean you have to treat them all that way. Your aggressiveness isn’t even warranted at all.
Private servers are essentially what keeps an MMO up, but unofficially if the official server shut down. In a sense, Wildstar never did go away.
If your talking about the polularity side of things, which i guess you were, well don’t usually hardcore people stick around for much longer?.. i mean the name “Hardcore” already implies they invested into the game enough to be more then a casual and play above then a casual. (Not that it’s always the case)
Oh alright, a specific genre of MMO’s, that makes sense.
Some are also tuned to be harder.
Numbers, sure. These are private servers for a reason and again, not that many people know about it.
Skill’s seriously debatable, because that carries back to the offical servers. Like WoW vanilla servers to Classic to most extent. Why else would we’ve seen the news about Molten Core being beat by level 58’s or people in greens and such?
Big as in the ones you get from Mage Tower, Mythic 10+'s, Rated PvP, Heroic/Mythic Raiding and rare obscure and hard to do achievements or quests?
I’m just asking so we can establish what constitutes as big here.
I mean too be honest, it’s not much of a sore point for Blizzard, considering they still make raids that… how many get to see?
Well first off, i wanted to say that my comment was not disagreeing with you, but agreeing with you by saying “Yes, you don’t exclusively make content a minority, you make it in addition while making all the other content where a majority will enjoy too.”
Fair enough.
Hasn’t this always been the case to balance it with the highest difficulty of raids or PvP in mind for WoW? WoW’s been pretty endgame focused since TBC.
Citation needed that isn’t MMO Population.
You know how we have skimpy transmogs here and such?..
And FF14 has… humans with bunny ears? And such?
Yeah, that’s what i was kind of getting at with that. Phrased oddly though, though it’s half on purpose.
Wha-- Where?..
I didn’t even say anything about what i’ve said there being a bad thing… Where in the absolute heck did you get that from?..
I hate all MTX in premium priced games, FF14 and WoW included.
Yeah, how dare i thought you were implying about something about jobs and such when you were talking about jobs and streamers and such. /s
Because this is what you’ve said before you said “Have jobs and lives” which i already responded too.
And it was the end of your comment after that.
Mate, i didn’t even say anything about gameplay loop or 8 hours a day in my comments. Where did this come from?..
There is difficult content for hard core players like high key M+, arena, mythic raids, etc. Mage Tower should not have been one of those things. It should have been easier than the Warlock green fire fight, but it’s much worse.
These developers are ruining a game that has been around for a long time.
WoW wants players to work hard. It just doesn’t usually offer anything interesting to work hard for, or any sort of decent climb up to the top of a system. Lately they’ve really doubled down on the “all or nothing” approach to things, which hasn’t helped.
So your choices for gameplay are often requiring you to reach a skill level that most people don’t possess to get anything out of a system, or mindlessly farm for RNG drops. There’s very little else to do.
I envy those that are invested in the mage tower right now. Those that are like “I’ve done 300 attempts and still got nothing, but I’ll keep trying!” I wish I had that sort of enjoyment from empty-handed failure, but I don’t .
You’re acting like all your strawman arguments have points. You’re not talking about even the same things I’ve posted. You’ve cherry picked quotes out of context, removed sentences between them. Re worded what was written in order to even make your points.
So yes. Its unreasonable. You’re deliberately miss quoting things. Trying to pretend you’re not is what isn’t warranted. Either make real points or stop pretending like you are. This isn’t where you get your r/ fame.
This is directly false lol. The wildstar Private server isn’t even close to the real game, has 0 content, and is just single player currently with player housing. In fact I’m in the discord to the team thats making it. Which is how I know its this limited.
No this isn’t at all what I’m talking about and the rest of this is your straw man attempt to change what Hardcore means in the statement. You know that isn’t what I ment, and you know that in the CONTEXT hardcore was used. We’re talking about (Because I said it.) High tier competitive players. The top 1-20% of players doing content.
Thats not how the word Genre works. You’re looking for the word feature, but it would still be wrong. Auto attacking isn’t a staple of MMO’s. You could say its a core mechanic to RPGs, but even then thats like saying all FPS’s have HUDS. Its a foolish thing to say and people expect it from their grandparents.
Its not debatable lol. Less Numbers. Means less competition less competition means the average skill is going to be lower. This isn’t exactly rocket surgery. Though this is again just another straw man argument you’re trying to make. You’re trying to shift the point to private servers. Which was never even in the main post. This is how far you’ve tried to subject change.
Why are you asking? I’ve already listed them, I already named them. We’ve already gone over the 4 core gameplay options WoW offers and why its not working. I’ll invite you to scroll up and return to reading and perhaps re-reading if you missed it the first time.
Well if we go by people who posted in this forum already. You didn’t. You have 0 bosses cleared on raid 1, or raid 2. None in normal. LFG, Heroic, Mythic. Thats all wasted content you never played. You’re the exact example of the casual that the game has failed to entertain with 3 out of its 4 core gameplay loops. You would be the 2nd in this chat alone.
Then I’m not seeing where you’re not grasping most of the content in the game. Isn’t an addition to the majority, but to just the minority.
Not always, though part of that is how the internet and data keeping has changed. But yes if you’re saying WoW’s core gameplay loop is raiding, and getting you to there. Yes. Thats always going to be its gameplay loop. Its only changed with M+ being more up there for PVE.
We can say not always though as the whole reason LFR was made per the Dev’s own words and reasoning was that they noticed most of WoW’s playerbase Never made it to the last raids. People never got to see the fight with illidan, or Arthas. These big moments most of the playerbase had no idea it happened. So for a time there were devs that understood the game has to cater more towards what most players can do, and not what just the few can accomplish.
You can even measure and look at how the community cares less and less about these top tier competitive things in the game. Pushback on the forums. Lack of viewership or care in M+ Arena Championships, Mythic raiding races. You can visually see the lack in views compared to where they used to be.
Well you’ve got a whole range of choices. From comparing the number of people who finished LFR each season, to more main stream sources of game journalism giving FF the MMO population crown. To the Dev’s themselves posting their own estimates. You can take it all with a grain of salt. Sure nothing wrong with that, but there are no contradicting sources saying that WoW’s in a good place playerbase wise.
You got an answer 3 different times. You chose to ignore it, then ignore it when other people tried to explain it to you. Not shocking considering most of your forum time is you bumping threads from Clark and the rest of the forum troll flamers lol. Its almost like people forget the rest of us can see your post history.
Nope! I specifically quoted our entire conversation where you never once answered it.
I didn’t have this conversation with anyone else. Boy, there’s a lot of making things up in this thread!
And even more making things up, too! I had one really dumb conversation with someone who apparently doesn’t like facts in one of his threads. And I think I told Clark he was being condescending in one post in another thread of his. Must be a new trend in forum posting: “I don’t have an argument so I’ll just make stuff up about people.”
You do? Go ahead and list it. You have world quests, doing old raids, and pet battles. None of which are the focus for main content in the game. You’re already admitting you know the answers above, and chose to ignore that. You’re trolling, and its bad. You got caught lol now calm it down.
Heres my first answer. Which you ignored, and felt the need to keep replying until you got another answer.
Here it is again. Using a whole different game Genre to try to explain it to you. Which I guess you still didn’t understand it.
So here you admit I answered you, but then also still pretend like I didn’t.
This is important for later.
I told you it was important for later. Despite you saying there’s tons of content not around the core game play loops. You named just 2 out of the 4 loops. Thats less than half the game. While you parade around like WoW had done nothing wrong. We can visually see. You barely did 2 of the gameplay loops. If it has a ton of gear in low keys. Why don’t you do them? Why are all your posts based around world content, and old transmogs? Nothing thats current.
At this point this is honestly the last reply you’ll get from me. Its very clear you’re just unwilling to try and read anything people tell you. I mean to me. Its pretty obvious its just basic tier troll bait. Asking the same question over and over despite you already knowing and posting the answers. You have clearly demonstrated I gave you an answer considering you posted the answers while still saying you don’t have them.
WoW is anything but hardcore and majority of content is available for even the super casuals like me. Wanna do harder content? Go do it - it won’t be handed to you. The only issue I see is just the ‘community’ which let’s face it, can be pretty terrible towards others.
I don’t think you understand why i reply the way i do. This disallows paraphrasing and allows the person to also get the full and even more context from what you’ve said. Because shockingly, doing this whole “To this piece here’s A, to this piece here’s B, to this piece here’s C”?.. would be a mess, which is why i and … 99% of people do it on the forums. Even you are doing it.
It’s always odd that people take issue with this but not realize why people do it and think it’s “Cherry picking” or “Ignoring context”.
I said “Your acting like i’m making you unreasonable”… I wasn’t to make you look unreasonable.
How can i even misquote things? Your quote is right there, and it’s immediately followed up with my thoughts.
Being a jerk isn’t ever warranted regardless how you justify it.
I don’t think you would ever accept i have real points if your giving me this false ultimatum.
I said in a sense.
The Offical MMO is shut down, it is gone. But because the internet exists and therefore preservation exists, the unofficial servers are still up. The game still lives on in some capacity, hence why i said “In a sense,”.
Mate, regardless what your definition of “Real game” is, Private servers are the game in it’s unofficial form and that’s that.
I can’t speak what Wildstar has, but there wouldn’t be any private servers if there was no content to play with.
I don’t think you know what “Single-player” means.
Then what are you talking about exactly?..
You were talking about the game being shut down, or what?
That is true that Auto Attacking is mostly seen in RPG’s where it’s more over about positioning, strategy, and using active skills as well weighing stats, not leaving much action as you would see in Dark Souls, Guild Wars 2, or The Witcher 3.
…How you think this is comparable to auto attacking?..
Maybe if you specified at the beginning then i wouldn’t get it wrong.
Well i’m sure you think that.
*Rocket science.
Plus, as i said before, because of the years we had with Vanilla Private servers, we are able to see Molten Core being cleared by raiders who just wore greens and such. This is just one part of Vanilla, the rest has been doumented and practiced to death by people considering Classic didn’t come with any notiable changes, besides the spell batching.
When you bring up the topic of MMO’s shutting down and hardcore players, private servers to play a role with those aforementioned hardcore players.
What’s the problem with asking or going over again?..
I asked so i won’t get anything wrong. I’m asking you.
You didn’t exactly specify which were talking about.
Okay, which number?.. Or do you mean the previous comment of yours that i’ve just quoted above?
Which is an unreliable number…
Because i wasn’t interested in raiding. That doesn’t mean other people aren’t.
Is that a legit problem with you that i play a game and don’t play 3 out of the 4 core gameplay loops? People can play MMO’s or games for whatever reason. If somebody wants to play Pet Battles in WoW all day, that’s their prerogative.
Me not playing that content doesn’t mean others aren’t.
Well fair enough.
Not just raiding… but tons of other stuff it has as well, such as dungeons, quests, pvp, pet battles, and so on.
Fair enough.
The Forums aren’t always a good indicator for player feedback.
…Okay.
That only counts people who play in LFR…
MMO population takes Reddit users which doesn’t even check to see who’s playing the game, but just searching or talking about it merely. It also keeps tracks of dead MMO’s like Wildstar and Everquest Online Adventures.
As for other choices, MAU throws MTX and sales into the mix, so there’s that, the articles that does tell how many players an MMO has, most of the time are about the total player count and not the current player count, sites that only count a spefific group of players like M+ and not take into account of other activities, and sites like superdata, just give us percentage increases/decreases without ever telling us the base number is at first. Making the data collecting all around questionable.
And this is all just talking from WoW which is on PC Battle.net. Other MMO’s like FF14 expands more then just that not just on PC storefronts, but consoles too. The only numbers that can be tracked reliably enough is New World, and that’s because it’s only on Steam.
Like my friend Spock would say, the needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few. It is only logical, but the devs just do not understand this.
I did list it! Twice, actually! So did someone else in here. It’s amazing how you accuse someone of not reading when you didn’t.
Here’s one of my posts about it:
And then I went through another post and talked about how we’ve also got all of the other levels of raids and dungeons and then there’s assaults and callings, too. None of that takes into account any old content either.
You seem to not understand what trolling is. And there was nothing to “get caught” on? I’m not even sure what that means.
It’s funny how when people make stuff up, they also have to gaslight and claim the other person is somehow upset. chuckles
I didn’t ignore it. I specifically replied to it. And it never answered the question! All you said was “the core of the game.” And the core of the game is questing and storyline. End game is for everyone with all sorts of difficulty levels. And there’s tons of stuff in between.
So nope! You didn’t answer it.
Nope! We discussed that too. You gave me an entire dissertation on the small 1% of top gear. Nothing about the majority of gameplay only being for the top 1% of players.
End game raids and PvP isn’t the core of this game. It’s simply end game. And the funny part is, even after explaining how much I have to do, you still ignored that and didn’t address any of it.
Ah, so there we go! The popular “I’ll just personally attack someone since I can’t be bothered to ever have a conversation with someone who is showing me something different than what I think!”
This is wrong lol. Cherry picking bits out is removing the context. ITs not adding more context. That’s not how language works.
The rest of your post here is again the same thing you’ve been doing. Cherry picking single sentences out. removing the context behind them, and responding with straw man comments that have no direction, no point. Other than to somehow make it look like you have a point.
Wheres the point? That you can just say things that are wrong, because you used the word Sense? There’s no Sense in that my guy lol. Beyond that wheres the context? Why did I say this. Its all missing.
For example. I’ll do it.
No we’re not.
You see how this isn’t how you ment that word at all, its missing all context and my statement has nothing to do with how you used it at all. This is what you’re doing with most of your post. Its annoying. People will constantly think its annoying and ignore any points you end up trying to really make, because this makes you look bad.
If you can’t speak about it why are you? Why did you try to even use it as a point when you don’t know anything about it. Why speak out of pure ignorance just because you Feel something is a way. Doesn’t make it true.
My guy you just said you can’t speak about wildstar. And here you are again trying to speak about it. Do you know the Wildstar private server has no server, and is fully hosted on your own PC, solo. No players but you? No you don’t. So here you are pretending to have a point when you’re beyond incorrect. Single player, is clearly one person. A solo player. No other Player characters. Everybody knows this, and at no point did anybody say said server had multi-player to it.
I invite you to go back and read the points if you’re this far into it and you can’t remember what the post was about. Kinda the whole example why you’re changing the subject. You’ve shifted it so far away from the discussion you can’t even remember what the post is about, or why you replied.
No. If I was going to say only for esports players. I’d have said that. 1600cr in pvp makes you the top 20% of the PVP playerbase. 1600cr is nowhere near esports pvp levels.
I’m sorry you don’t understand the use of the word feature.
Or you could just take the time to read something first, then make your reply.
Obviously. I typed it. Of course that would be my opinion. You’ve given 0 factual support as to why its incorrect.
Thats the joke. r/woosh
Not really. We saw top tier players playing vanilla and the average playerbase both going. Wow this is easy. Because Vanilla wasn’t hard. It never was. It was hard back then because we had 0 experience with MMO RPGs, most of the playerbase was way younger, and the internet had mostly no information on metas. Vanilla wow VS classic wow are two whole different monsters in terms of how the community meta’d it.
They really don’t they’re beyond a small playerbase of anything. Out of all the MMO’s that have failed which is a staggering number. You’ve only ever had 2 private servers be successful at anything. City of Heroes, and Return of Reckoning. Outside of those two, theres almost no private server thats made any real impact on the game they represent.
Because you can read it again my guy. This isn’t a conversation. You can just scroll up and reread if you didn’t get it the first time lol.
Your response to this proves you just don’t understand the whole post. Thats the whole point of this. That if you have players not doing THE CORE OF THE GAME. The MAIN POINT OF THE GAME. Thats what the Devs are making the game for YOU to do. Then theres clearly a problem. Its not going to maintain somebody’s money who isn’t PLAYING THE CORE PARTS OF THE GAME.
There. Parts are in caps so maybe you’ll read them lol.
This was never the point, and its another attempt at misrepresenting the point all together. Would really be nice if you wern’t being so disingenuous.
This has to be my favorite one, because you edit the quote like c’mon. I listed all those things. We’ve gone over this.
And we can also see that out of all those things you do none of them. You do world questing, thats all we see you’ve done. Which goes back to the point of the Game needs to cater to the majority of players, not just the top and leave the rest with nothing to do.
When was the last pet battle update for balance in pvp? There hasn’t been. I’ve run the same meta for years with a 47 win spree in it, because theres no good counter most of the time.
When was the last time people got excited to world quest? I can’t name it. it was always set up as busy work or stuff you had to do for borrowed power, for pvp/raiding/M+/dungeons.
You’re not making a very good case if you’re trying to argue theres more content for people out of the core loop than there is for people in it.
Most of the content in WoW is super easy, and made for casual players. The hardcore perfectionist players are entitled to something for them as well. They can’t just make content for the bottom 99% of players.
Considering many of the stats, KSM & PVP ratings are cheated due to being bought, it kinda makes it hard to determine who’s the top 1% anymore. Blizz sells gold, then allows the use of gold in carries. They broke their own game, but profiting from that break.
Folks want to see top tier progression, keys and gear, so if you have the $, you can legally (not against the ToU), buy your way to the top. It inflates capabilities (ever see a 2k mythic rated player have no clue how to interrupt?).
And being an influencer in WoW is easy. Just yell, scream random things, get overly excited about stupid stuff and show off mounts that you got lucky on getting because true skill is out the window anymore.
If the argument is “Get Good” than cya I’ll go find an mmo that doesn’t try to scale so hard on difficulty. My goal isn’t platinum in League of Legends, or Predator in Apex etc. I’m much older now with a family and a career, video game Twitch streaming is not my career. It looks like Blizzard is catering to the gaming crowd of young adults and kids who have more free time on their hands for repeated attempts similar to Mythic raid progression. The question is, what % of the player base wants this or wants that!?
Just because you dislike responding that way (which you still are doing), that doesn’t make it wrong…
You know for somebody who is concerned about me cherry picking and taking out of context, you sure don’t have a problem with doing it yourself with my comments…
I don’t think you know what those 3 things you’re saying are.
Again, for somebody who complains about me cropping sentences and quotes, you seem to be doing the same. Maybe read it as i elaborated on it?..
Read my comment again. I’ve already explained it perfectly on what i’ve mean.
It’s really simple and starightforward the way i’ve explained it.
99% of the people i come across never had an issue with the way i respond to people because 99% of the people respond in this way. And the ones who do take issues with how i or other respond with people with them saying “Cherry picking, getting out of context and strawman” and such are trolls that just dislike what they have to say anyways regardless if the method of responding differs, or rarely, legit don’t know why they respond in the way they do. I’ve already told you why, and you think it’s wrong, despite you been doing it this entire thread…
Also it’s quite telling that your speaking for other people on what they think just because you personally dislike how i respond.
I yet to see somebody else other then you who has a problem with how i respond in this thread. Which even then, even if 100% of the people here dislike the common method of responding on these forums, would be a minority of people anyways.
I was speaking in general after how i said “I can’t speak what Wildstar has” because surprise, i’ve never played it before. But ask yourself this for any game, you seriously think people are gonna go to Private servers if it’s based off a game with 0 actual content?..
If Wildstar has 0 content, you think people would go and play it, even in unofficial servers?..
Or let me guess, your 0 content is pure hyperbole because Wildstar doesn’t have the kind of content that you want?..
Wildstar is still an MMO last time i check. Saying an MMO is a single player game is silly regardless of what game were playing.
Do you know you could also get Private servers for WoW that are singleplayer too?.. I mean does that mean WoW is single-player because it has a few single-player private servers?
Regardless if Wildstar has a single-player private server, it’s still an MMO.
No, That’s Solo player.
A Single-Player game would be something like Maneater, Batman, Skyrim, GTA SA, and so on. Games designed with a single player in mind for somebody to play in a copy of the game. What i do in my copy of a single-player game (mods, and such), doesn’t affect your copy of the single-player game.
A Solo player, is still playing in a shared gameworld with other players in a single server. Whether it be multiplayer games like Battlefield, Pubg, Fortnite, TF2, Overwatch, and etc, or MMO’s like WoW, FF14, GW2, and so on.
This is why i correct people when they say silly things like “this MMO is a single-player game”, because they seem to think MMO’s need to be thriving with people and you need to be in groups 24/7 or else it might as well be nothing to them, when really, it’s only an MMO if the game is an MMO.
Or just quote where you’ve said.
What do you mean “No”?.. You bought up High Tier Competitive Players. What are you even talking about at this point?
Okay, i don’t see how that’s high tiered… but fair enough, at least we know what your talking about now.
I’m asking how you think an FPS without a hud is comparable to an RPG with Auto attacking… Because these are two different things.
I wouldn’t call Auto attacking a feature, as well the others i’ve posted about, but when you look at 2 RPGs for example like Dark Souls and Dragonage Orgins, you can clearly see these are 2 different games requiring two different sets of skills. And Dragonage Orgins has auto attacks in between all the 1,2,3,4 skills you perform, along with all the stats, talents and such to keep in mind. Dark Souls meanwhile is just a big “Dodge out of the way if the enemy is charging up for an attack”. It’s a very small thing, but it’s a pretty big difference maker in a lot of cases.
You told me that if i use the word “feature” it would be wrong… and now your saying i don’t not understand it?
I have. I still rather you specify because you seem to have a habit going on where you go like “WRONG” everytime i try to assume something vaguely described by you.
I’ve given 0 factual support on why it’s correct either. It’s just a subjective opinion you have.
Hilarious.
Literally any game can be hard due to zero experience back in those days.
But that’s just it, it’s the community that is majorly different. If we look at the games themselves, the only difference is Classic is running on a newer engine with newer UI.
We were different gamers back then we are now.
A small playerbase isn’t nothing.
Didn’t Nostalgius closed down before we had Classic?
Okay, give me the post number and i’ll give it a read then.
I wasn’t simply interested in some parts of the game. That’s all. It’s really that simple of the response and i honestly don’t understand why your expanding this into a counter point as if it’s meant to be a point to rebutt your point begin with.
What i do isn’t indicative of what other people do and it’s not a big problem as you seem to do. If somebody played this game to just play Pet battles all day… then that’s fine.
WoW isn’t just about raiding. It can literally be whatever you want it to be for you. Some even do less then pet battles like RP or tmog fashion show or whatever, and that is fine too. If somebody doesn’t want to play the core parts of the game, that is not them playing wrongly or anything.
…Yeah, how dare i expand upon what i’ve said to not be vague. How dare i recognize there’s more to this game then the “core gameplay loops”… /s
Oh my crocodile jesus this is the silliest thing you’ve ever said…
How do you think i got to World questing? How do you think i got Flying in Shadowlands?.. How do you think i get threads of fate open? Or Torghast? Or anything???
I don’t think you even know what i do at this point. Maybe you’re the one who is pretending friend. This is just you setting up arbitrary rules to check off in order to see that qualifies as “playing” in your opinion.
I didn’t say anything about me playing PVP or anything.
I didn’t say anything about World Quests being for top or majority players.
I didn’t say anything about people being excited for PvP, world quests, or pet battles.
Well yes, there is more content then just raiding, pvp, M+ and questing. (Assuming that’s the 4 gameplay loops your talking about) It’s still content regardless how strict you want to get with it.
I don’t think that was an argument in here. People have been talking about what exactly is and isn’t content for the 1%, because the top 1% doesn’t have the majority of content in this game.
Now, I was a fan of how Old Republic had their gearing system set up. But that’s a free to play game, so it made sense. Of course, they’re now taking that out completely in their new expansion, to go with a tiered system based on encounter difficulty.
But WoW is still sub based with a difficulty system built for many different levels and a solo gearing system to get people geared to about midway through those difficulties. So while I have a lot of complaints about this expansion, lack of content for my casual self isn’t one of them.
.
/s