[WotLK] Let's talk Dungeon Finder

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
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I kind of doubt this is true about “most” players. I don’t believe there’s any way to prove it without access to Blizzard’s data. Anecdotally I know I did far and away more dungeons after Dungeon Finder came into existence. I might have been “done” with them on my rogue main, but then I had a paladin, druid, death knight, and warrior. All told I completed at least 10 times as many dungeons after RDF than before.

During these conversations here I’ve seen that not only was I not some weird outlier, we were maybe a slight minority. Potentially even in the majority.

I agree with both of those observations.

And you’ve completely lost me. I had a lot of fun in random dungeons. Sometimes we were rambunctiously chatty, others less so. I specifically remember several dungeons where nobody said hardly anything, we knew the dungeon backwards and forwards, knew our roles and executed them, completed in record time with no deaths, and at the end someone said “That was awesome!” “Yeah, wanna go again?”

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I share this same experience. I was young (18-ish) and thought anything PvE related was completely lame and a waste of time. Tried doing a few dungeons just to have people afk, disconnect, constant “brb gotta do x dumb crap”, after spending 30+ minutes forming the group and then actually getting to the dungeon. RDF launched and I was doing the daily heroic on 3 different toons and spamming dungeons just for filler in between wintergrasp. Great times. Ended up actually getting enough PvE gear to join a guild and attend raids, til Cata released and a ton of people quit, as well as myself.

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Thank you for doing blizzard’s job for them. Here’s my copypasta from over a month ago:

US forum thread

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/looking-for-dung-poll/1223713

EU forum thread

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/poll-lfd-in-wotlk/353670

Strawpoll with the most votes I could find

https://strawpoll.com/polls/jVyGJaER1Z7/results

Some youtuber’s poll (WillE)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1haxYclmhXwa4FKFqYSaRw/community?lb=Ugkx_iEkW00THPdKlhnvEnYO-U9gzYLJNXEI

Some other youtuber’s poll (Solheim Gaming)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaZhtHB-MqwvMS2YhPRujYQ/community?lb=UgkxYzNd-AqGv1vPjUgn2UuoaDBlYBj0TQ51

And here’s the only poll I could find that supports no RDF jk it’s another poll that supports RDF

https://www.reddit.com/poll/u7kqc4

There is irrefutable evidence that the majority want LFD. The people speaking out against it claim they care about the “community”, meanwhile they only run with the people in their own guilds or cliques.

The LFD tool is pure. It does not care about your gear or experience as long as you meet the minimum ilvl requirement for what you’re queueing into.

The retail tool blizzard is trying to implement will only serve as a gate for invitation-only groups. It provides no help for lower pop servers or low level dungeons.

Popular sentiment on here is that blizzard is refusing to add the LFD tool because it will stop people from buying boosts. It’s pretty obvious that is one of their main reasons. Greed has taken hold of the company that was once loved. Just take a look at that shameful Diablo Immoral.

LFD needs to be added at the start of Wrath in it’s final 3.3.5 state, dungeon teleport and all.

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1 - I’m extremely disappointed that it won’t be in WoTLK and honestly keeps me from being hyped up for it.

2 - The quality of life is a massive, MASSIVE positive for me. Not talking about the instant teleport in, I’m talking about how it auto finds a group for you.
Right now, in TBC, there was a time where I spent 4 HOURS trying to find a group for a dungeon. That is insane. It’s not fun, it’s not making me feel social spamming “LF TANK” in chat for 4 hours. I’m a wife. I’m a mom. I really, really don’t have the time or patience to spend 4 hours spamming for a dungeon like I did as a young teen. That’s not a fun game to me.

3 - It brings toxicity? Maybe? The fact that you don’t have to search for the people and manually run to the dungeon I guess maybe might make people more lazy/unmepathetic and easier for them to just vote kick or not care about the other people in the party? Maybe burnout faster from spamming dungeons?
I say that. but I’ve also been in dungeons where people were toxic anyway so this negative point is really just me searching for an answer that works.

4 - It’s a must, but I would be totally fine with a hybrid solution. Say, it finds the group for you, but you still have to run to the dungeon. That’s a middle ground that I think is fair and fine and makes everyone happy.

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It’s certainly plausible, given the hypocrisy of their design decisions.

I’m starting to think that if it’s kind of complicated to get lfd to work right…the ‘devs’ don’t want to put in the effort.

Whatever the reason, it’s not about what they claimed about community and the spirit of Classic. That’s hogwash. TBCC without dungeon finder is a total mess.

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  1. I am angry and disappointed.
  2. Convenience and…
  • It will greatly limit the number of players utilizing boosting to level their alts, directly taking money out of many gold farms hands.
  • It will please a majority of the community.
  1. Boosting will continue to fill the lower levels, and everyone will spend more time combing discord servers for scheduled runs to avoid the LFG tool and add-on.
  2. Yeah, you can limit cross server LFD. I would be fine with making it server wide only.
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I think it’s a mistake. People tend to think that the addition of Dungeon Finder was a catalyst for the beginning of the end of community in WoW, but I believe this is not a direct cause and effect. The community wasn’t eroded by any one change to the game’s design, it was was already doomed by the changing technological trends of the time. I believe I heard it first in a Josh Strife Hayes video that social media replaced the social MMORPG, and it makes a lot of sense. Before places like MySpace, Facebook, and Twitter, MMOs were the social media of the day outside of web forums and chatrooms. The tech world moves fast, however, and Facebook was already about 3-4 years old when Wrath came around, so the detrimental effects have built up long enough for trends to be noticed and design decisions to be enacted. Dungeon Finder is one such decision, put in place to replace the loss of social players who would often be the spearheads of group activities in the game.

It made leveling in dungeons actually viable, which in turn made leveling as something other than a DPS spec viable and not a waste of time. In fact, it gives reason to experience Classic/TBC dungeon content, most people will skip that stuff in Wrath as it’s not worth the hassle to form a party compared to questing, unless you already have someone to run you. Speaking of which, it pretty much obsoleted player boost runs as it became the more convenient (and cheaper) way to do dungeons. Generally, it saves a lot of time, something most of us had in spades back when Wrath first released but now can barely afford as a luxury today; everything is getting more expensive, including our time.

It does add a bit of toxicity to the game, especially when cross-server groups were introduced. However, my personal encounters with other players haven’t been much different than they have been on retail. The game may be classic but this is still a modern player-base; Blizzard didn’t make a time machine, after all. Furthermore, there is a loss in some sense of community, but likewise I don’t get that out of WoW anymore. All my community is from external sources now, and they are just generally better for it.

I’d be fine with a hybrid solution. I mean, it’s technically just a compromise, but honestly Blizzard should just send out a survey and get the actual numbers of people who want this versus people who don’t. However, in my opinion, Blizzard should just open servers with LFD enabled and give us transfers over to it. This could also knock down some of the mega-server populations, so it’s like two birds with one stone.

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  1. I’m indifferent to the announcement because I don’t play on retail progression servers masquerading under the name of Classic. Furthermore this topic of discussion is getting beaten to death across the forums such that new threads on it should be flagged as spam.
    2,3,4. The +/- of DF are irrelevant for the future of Classic as it isn’t a part of it. The solution is to stop wasting time with this nonsense and invest developers’ time in making actual new content for the Classic realms, not seasonal ones either.
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598

True enough. The players are still significant stakeholders though and I believe it would certainly behoove the devs to cast a wider net in garnering opinions to guide their decision making in this issue. But I suppose that was the point of the thread.

And yeah…there’s that…

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  1. How do you feel about Dungeon Finder not being added to WotLK Classic?

I feel like it’s a missed opportunity overall. I think that if you designed it right, a dungeon finder might still fit in with the Classic ethos. A completely Random Dungeon Finder might take away some of the charm, but if you could add stats like “x has played together with y player, z number of times, so lets prioritise them being able to play together” that might be a way of keeping the community-oriented vibe.

  1. What do you think are the positives of having Dungeon Finder?

Finding dungeons, obviously. It’s a huge QoL upgrade if you’re implementing it right.

  1. What do you think are the negatives of having Dungeon Finder?

If implemented exactly the way it was back in the old days, it might be kind of out of whack with what the Classic community wants.

  1. Do you think an hybrid solution could be implemented, whether it be a partial Dungeon Finder or a different solution altogether, and what could that solution be, if you can think of any?

Yes I do. I’ve already described it above.

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From open source internet polls? You call that irrefutable evidence?

Easily manipulated polls is your evidence amd you’re acting like it was a scientific study with 0 room for distortion of results, lol.

Every single one of those polls can be voted on multiple times by an individual, which means a bot can be set up to vote thosands of times…

Are you going to use wikipedia as your next “irrefutable” evidence?

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add the dungeons finder from live where u post the dungeons and the leader accepts or declines the people who apply to it

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You want further proof? Tally up the likes, comments, and threads that are for pro-LFD on these very forums.

I already know you won’t because we both know I’m right - the majority want LFD.

Funny that the sources of polls is the only thing you choose to attack while adding nothing of value to the topic at hand.

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The majority of players don’t use these forums. The majority of players don’t vote on the polls.

People are more likely to post on these forums to complain than to say they agree with a change. Also, you are ignoring that people can and do have multiple wow accounts, so again, an open vote system is easily manipulated when an individual can have multiple accounts.

Im not claiming a majority for or against rdf. Im just stating the “evidence” being used to show the want for rdf is flawed for multiple reasosns and cannot be taken as “irrefutable” evidence as it has to many holes in its integrety and motivational incentive of people spending the time to vote.

I do think the majority of people who actually want classic are being drown out by the majority of people that want retail with wotlk content focus. Hence the bully tacticts of insulting, belittling, character attacking, exc anyone who doesnt want “convenience over social interaction”. Heck people agaist rdf have been called lairs for not wanting rdf, which is a personal preference, its opinion based. So the pro rdf people are claiming to know the anti rdf person’s opinion better than the anti rdf person himself…

The want for or agaist rdf boils down to personal opinion on what is better for that individuals ideal version of the game.

Yet its the pro rdf side that is actively trying to silence the anti rdf side through the tactics mentioned above. Im not saying noone on the anti rdf has behaved this way, but it appears to be a far more common behavior for the pro rdf community. And that should tell you something about how the polls and statistics are playing out. People like to be part of the “mob” because its easier and they will feel safer (or valued), vs going against the mob. People are less likely to voice their opinion if they see others with the same opinion as them being verbally “attacked” for sharing that opinion.

Overall though, my point is your “irrefutable” evidence is anecdotal at best due to all the factors that can distort the results of the evidence you are using.

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  1. How do you feel about Dungeon Finder not being added to WotLK Classic?

Elated. The only reason why I will keep playing instead of moving back to pservers.

  1. What do you think are the positives of having Dungeon Finder?

Mostly leveling, which is quite outweight by the p2w mechanics of the boost.
It makes leveling more fun to an extremely limited degree, more of a “minigame inbetween questing”.
Adds another dimension to leveling a tank or a healer.
All of these are worthless now that paid boost and RMT are in the equation. Dual spec further makes drops its usefulness.

  1. What do you think are the negatives of having Dungeon Finder?

Everything.
The most important part being “You are now forced to log in everyday or fall behind.”
Before ICC, the “highest form of emblem” was only dropped “in the highest form of raid”.
This overhauls the dynamics from “I can log in when I want” to “Log in everyday or you’re a drag who’s going to be 1-2 pieces of gear below your raid in a few weeks”.
This alone, is enough for me to drop the game as I don’t want another habit forming mobile game, we have retail for that, and I avoid it.

Explanation of Badges per tier: **T7** * Emblem of Valor: Naxx 25 * Emblem of Heroism: Naxx 10, Heroic 5 mans

T8

  • Emblem of Conquest: Ulduar 25
  • Emblem of Valor: Ulduar 10, Naxx 10 & 25, Heroic 5 Mans

T9

  • Emblem of Triumph: TotGC 25
  • Emblem of Conquest: TotGC 10, Ulduar 10 & 25, Naxx 10 & 25, Heroic 5 Mans

T10

  • Emblem of Frost: ICC 10 & ICC 25, RS 10 & 25, ICC 5 man quest chains
  • Emblem of Triumph: ToGC 10 & 25, Ulduar 10 & 25, Naxx 10 & 25, Heroic 5 Mans, Normal ICC 5 Mans
There are several other negatives, listing them here since they are minor in comparison.The dungeons have been downtuned to fit any comp. Where in tbc you need synergy, CC, pathing, etc. In wotlk dungeons are dumbed down to "move forward and spam aoe". The social aspect is dead. World pvp would die with it too, but sadly, activision has already killed it in order to make people pay for transfers, so at least one of the bad points is void. The game becomes "log in, do a daily, log out" for a lot of players. As a DPS player, you're now in hell, waiting for hours, instead of doing anything fun, because everyone is afk waiting at dala for their "your dungeon is ready" prop.
  1. Do you think an hybrid solution could be implemented, whether it be a partial Dungeon Finder or a different solution altogether, and what could that solution be, if you can think of any?

Enable RDF for normal dungeons up to and including outland during phase 1 and 2 so you don’t ruin the experience of those who want to level without boosting. This would negatively impact actiblizz’s money, so good luck implementing it.
Enable RDF for 70-80 normals except ToC and ICC one phase after they are old content (enable ToC 5man normal when ICC comes out, enable ICC normals never).
Make the “daily” reward useless for progression, but useful for leveling.
Never ever under any circumstances allow HEROIC dungeon finder in a game ever again.
This is the absolute maximum compromise I could see happening and I would still consider it in a very negative light. I know I’m stupidly open minded as usual and most anti rdf people will think I’m too open to RDF, and they are right, I’m being soft. But you asked for compromise. This unpleasant middleground is “one step above the maximum that should ever be allowed”

Edit: My last and I’d say smartest solution to this is even better:
How do we find a middleground between RDF and no RDF?
We don’t! We make pve realms and pvp realms. Pve realms have RDF, PVP realms don’t.
Or split them 4 ways (pvp rdf, pvp no rdf, pve rdf, pve no rdf) and watch people sort themselves through the vote.

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It’s important to put things in perspective. While there is obviously an outcry regarding the LFD not being included, it is disingenuous to state that it is without a doubt what the majority wants.
It is not possible to tell what the majority wants because there is no actual poll that reflects the majority of the player base.

Most players do not engage on social media, whether it is content creators, forums, Reddit, twitter, etc. and those who do usually does so regarding topics they are invested in such as those wanting the LFD to be included.
It isn’t a stretch to say that polls and posts will be skewed one way because of it.

If you take a look at the WoW Classic reddit, a place where it’s mostly memes, they have a very different outlook on the topic there, the top comments are mostly against the LFD and/or in favor of partial LFD. See this Reddit thread as a good example.

I’m not saying that it might not be correct to say most people want LFD, but until we can have a way to poll the whole playerbase, we won’t be able to tell.

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I like how the final negative in the WCC post is “hurting WPvP”.

Bruh, have you been to a PvP realm lately? The extent of WPvP is logging in for towers to get your free honor or having someone log into their Alliance alt account to flip towers in Hellfire. WPvP has been dead a long time because of Blizz’s mismanagement.

There have been numerous polls throughout social media, youtube from popular creators, and posted in forums. EVERY SINGLE ONE has overwhelming support for LFD being in WotLK. It’s grasping at straws and being disingenuous to claim “there is no way of knowing what players want”. Why hasn’t Blizz done a survey on this? They seemed extra giddy to run surveys on cash shop additions…yet removed LFD without ever asking the community for input. We know what Blizz’s priorities are, they want to milk Classic as much as possible and care little about what players actually want outside of things they can directly sell to players.

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You’ll move back to pservers, that have LFD, if Blizz adds in LFD??? Kek

And then you want to gatekeep progress and remove QoL changes because you are under the assumption people won’t still log in each day to grind badges even without LFD. There are no negatives, people who want LFD removed have to perform mental gymnastics that have zero logical consistency because “QoL Bad” is trending among edge lords. LFD doesn’t require you to log in each day. Should we remove dailies? Those require people to log in each day for rep to get gear and are a much bigger necessity in WotLK than previous expansions…

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Grobbulus has a healthy faction balance for the most part so that point would apply to that server.
Servers balance is also an issue outlined in the post.

I linked to a thread that disprove this.

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He answered about this. When you are upset about something you tend to be very vocal about it.

Meanwhile, those who are fine or don’t care about this decision just don’t.
I’m not a big fan of LFD, yet i don’t spam the forums about it nor i spend my time to answer as many polls as possible about it.

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