WOTLK doesn't need RDF

[Elorael-remulos]

@Piezuri-benediction

already doing that before LFD even came out.

In 2008? Not on any of the servers I was on.

[Piezuri-benediction]

@Elorael-remulos

In 2008? Not on any of the servers I was on.

It was absolutely a thing. It also doesn’t matter, it’s like that now.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Piezuri-benediction

It also doesn’t matter, it’s like that now.

So you’re suggesting “We’re already screwed, lets lean in”?

[Piezuri-benediction]

@Elorael-remulos

So you’re suggesting “We’re already screwed, lets lean in”?

It’s more, “we have a very real problem, pearl clutching for an imagined reality is just going to hurt the community” than, “leaning in”.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Aurumai-whitemane

I do care. I know you don’t see merit in it, but I like the necessity for cooperation and communication, even if it’s minimal. I’d prefer even robotic effort over just clicking a button and having a significant part of the experience of the game effectively removed.

So keep doing so? There is nothing stopping you from forming groups just as you do today.

There’s even more value in it for you as you’ll be getting people on the same page as you about why they want to group with you.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Ziryus-pagle

There is nothing stopping you from forming groups just as you do today.

Yes, everybody resorting to using the dungeon finder because it’s a lot easier to use does exactly that.

For everyone to be on the same page, nobody can have access to a supreme level of convenience that others need to choose to ignore.

[Elorael-remulos]

@Piezuri-benediction

“we have a very real problem, pearl clutching for an imagined reality is just going to hurt the community”

Except that what you describe as “pearl clutching” is an attempt to stem the thing you claim is already a problem, whereas your position is guaranteed to enhance that problem.

What is hard to grasp about this?

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

@Ziryus-pagle

There is nothing stopping you from forming groups just as you do today.

Yes, everybody resorting to using the dungeon finder because it’s too much easier to use does exactly th at.

The argument that forming groups by hand actually offers so little value that noone will do it is not a compelling argument for why it is a good system.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

It’s a compelling argument for LFD being convenient. That’s all it is.

Nobody has ever argued that LFD isnt massively convenient, that’s just the issue with it is all.

[Piezuri-benediction]

@Zipzo-atiesh

Yes, everybody resorting to using the dungeon finder because it’s a lot easier to use does exactly that.

“I don’t like other people who may otherwise struggle to find a group have an easier time getting into a dungeon and therefore making it harder for me to get into a dungeon” is how I read this.

For everyone to be on the same page, nobody can have access to a supreme level of convenience that others need to choose to ignore.

This sounds a lot like you want to hurt the community more than help it.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

You can’t compare this to real life issues like cancelling student debt or whatever you’re aiming for.

This is a game where the entire point is to prop up artificial challenges for you to overcome.

It’s Blizzards job to design these challenges, and our only job is to figure out how to overcome them.

What you do by saying “yes” everytime a convenience feature comes your way, and by screeching every time one is taken away, is show that for you all that is important is designing the game down to your level rather than…you know, doing it the way you’re supposed to and working within your constraints to overcome the challenge that was created by a game developer with a vision for how they wanted you to attempt to overcome it.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

It’s a compelling argument for LFD being convenient. That’s all it is.

Nobody has ever argu ed that LFD isnt massively convenient, that’s just the issue with it is all.

Right people have argued that is it not only convenient but to them forming groups manually does not offer a better game play experience.

Now it’s fine that some people think it does, but then they would continue to do so right even if LFD is added? If the experience is that much better.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

No, because you’re dimwittedly ignoring behavioral habits of gamers and how things “work” in these types of games.

Not everyone does things purely because they spark joy. People do whatever they have to do to grind out or reach things that do spark joy. If given the option, many people would even take a free full set of BIS gear with no drawbacks if it was offered to them.

Does that mean we should offer free full sets of BIS gear to everyone because they will “enjoy the game more”? Not everything is about your enjoyment. Sometimes the integrity of the game design should take precedence.

[Aurumai-whitemane]

@Feywaif-atiesh

Fine. I have yet to see any real evidence that it’s so easy to form groups that it would make any sense to eliminate a feature that was a part of wrath in it’s original state. If you want evidence from us link us to your record of your dungeon runs and the times it took you to find a group

Sorry, I actually misspoke when saying “real evidence”. What I meant to say was something more like “sound reasoning”. The logic behind the pro-Dungeon Finder arguments is usually something along the lines of:

• It’s too difficult to form groups and run content
• It’s impossible for people on dead realms to find people to play with
• I want dungeon runs to be less of a time investment
• Dungeon runs already lack communication
• Traveling isn’t meaningful gameplay
• 3 players already get a teleport to the dungeon
• People boost to level anyway
  and so on.

Every single one of these things is highly problematic and it’s easy to poke holes in the logic. Dungeon Finder is a controversial feature. Many people subjectively want and don’t want it. Therefore, rather than retrofitting the game for anecdotal experiences, we should only ask for it to be implemented if the objective arguments in favor of it outweight the objective arguments against it.

@Feywaif-atiesh

That’s your subjective personal opinion that the dungeon finder moves the game closer to retail. Everyone has there personal opinion where the line is between the original parts of the game and what they consider retail.

You’re partially right about that, but being that the gradient between “old WoW” and Retail is, in and of itself, only a partially objective thing, we’d have no choice but to take some subjective perspective into account.

There is both subjective and objective merit to certain metrics like how long it took for Activision’s influence to manifest in Blizzard’s IP, the way the subscriber count changed over time, the fact that a market for “legacy servers” grew steadily and large enough for Activision Blizzard to make a significant investment into appealing to, the way design philosphy changed over time, etc.

@Piezuri-benediction

whereas LFD doesn’t really cause much real problems that aren’t already present in game.

The presence of problems doesn’t suddenly warrant us accepting more problems into the situation. Yes, server population distribution and faction balance is generally horrendous in Classic. But that’s a separate issue that should be addressed. Yes, dungeon carries are a very common thing and they break the way the game was intended to be played, but dungeon carries should be broken.

Dungeon Finder may mitigate some problems to a degree, but only in their symptoms. It doesn’t actually fix anything.

@Ziryus-pagle

So keep doing so? There is nothing stopping you from forming groups just as you do today.

There’s even more value in it for you as you’ll be getting people on the same page as you about why they want to group with you.

I've talked on this before.

@Aurumai-whitemane

@Feywaif-atiesh

LfD doesn’t prevent players from communicating.

No, it doesn’t prevent people from communicating, but it trivializes the necessity of communication. People en masse will literally always favor the more convenient option. Therefore, trivializing the necessity of a thing effectively removes it from existence by and large.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

No, because you’re dimwittedly ignoring behavioral habits of gamers and how things “work” in these types of games.

No I’m pointing out that what others enjoy in gaming might not be in line with what you enjoy. And more importantly pointing out that what you want actually isn’t very popular.

Which is why you are throwing a hissy fit. You actually don’t seem to care about game quality at all, mostly you just care about others not enjoying it, for reasons.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

Ahahaha, yes, the crowd was just in silent, unanimous agreement when they said they were removing LFD.

No hissy fits to be seen at all! Check the mirror, friend-o.

@Ziryus-pagle

No I’m pointing out that what others enjoy in gaming might not be in line with what you enjoy.

Okay, good for you. If you enjoy LFD you have options available to you for using it. Let me enjoy an LFD-less WOTLK, as is planned to occur, thank you.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Zipzo-atiesh

Okay, good for you. If you enjoy LFD you have options available to you for using it. Let me enjoy an LFD-less WOTLK, thank you.

Well we always knew you were a hypocrite, so much for caring about that authentic experience.

But I will take enjoyment knowing that you personally don’t get a TBC Classic for eternity even if others miss out.

[Aurumai-whitemane]

@Ziryus-pagle

@Zipzo-atiesh

Yes, everybody resorting to using the dungeon finder because it’s too much easier to use does exactly th at.

The argument that forming groups by hand actually offers so little value that noone will do it is not a compelling argument for why it is a good system.

The argument isn’t that manually forming groups offers too little value for people to bother. It’s that people value convenience over quality and will therefore skip the essential parts of the game’s design philosophy to reach their goals a minute sooner.

You should watch the movie Cars if you haven’t already, it illustrates this point quite well.

@Piezuri-benediction

“I don’t like other people who may otherwise struggle to find a group have an easier time getting into a dungeon and therefore making it harder for me to get into a dungeon” is how I read this.

That’s because you’re projecting. No one is saying they want for people to struggle to have a good time. If that’s genuinely how you look at this, then the point of this conversation has flewn out of the atmosphere over your head.

[Zipzo-atiesh]

@Ziryus-pagle

Well we always knew you were a hypocrite, so much for caring about that authentic experience.

I’m fine with LFD implemented when ICC releases, if you want to go there.

[Ziryus-pagle]

No you aren’t you’ll whine about it then.

And also not consistent with blizzard’s implementation of classic to date.