I don’t think it’s as small as you’re implying. But also, what comes first, the lack of investment or the lack of players?
Here’s a wild take.
Maybe not play ping pong with both the most required roles constantly and encourage, lower their barrier of entry and perhaps there’d be more pug groups.
If I recall in Season 1, there was a severe tank shortage because tanks were not fun to play, so the only ones that bothered where the ones that were guaranteed successful runs in premades until they were buffed into neigh unkillable gods.
Now here in Season 2, in response to the belief that healing was just too boring, they raised the ceiling on healing along with the floor, so now healing in general is just more difficult for lower skilled players, which in turn makes the ones that stick with it run with premades for guaranteed success.
If they can’t be bothered with at least adding a queue to M0 (which apparently everyone both acknowledges as being completely irrelevant after 3 days but also also must be pre-made groups only for reasons), then they should have at least made the barrier those roles lower, at least at the start.
But they choose otherwise and where, here we are. Gestures vaguely at this thread
Refresh my memory, but haven’t players complained about the last 3 or 4 they added?
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OP is just looking for a solution that either reduces queue time and/or helps with the “toxicity” when players randomly leave keys or whatever other excuse. finding a guild/community is one way, but should not be the only way.
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All gear is not equal; Generally speaking Raid gear is more tightly tuned to specific classes and offers stronger overall power then what you can get from M+ outside of specific rewards. Beyond that, it also offers a fundamentally different expierience to raiding.
How exactly?
It really doesn’t; running 3 keys is going to (assuming everything goes reasonably well) going to take you 20-25 minutes whereas raiding is probably going to take you 3 hours for a current dungeon if everything goes relatively smoothly.
Now true, you can sink more time into it to get more and better rewards, but that’s kind of true of raiding as well; you could run all 4 tiers of the raid every week to try and get gear.
Because I do not see those changes as something that will make pugging better.
I see the changes as something that will make pugging worse. I have no issue with attempts to make it better. But just because someone suggests something doesn’t mean its automatically going to make things better.
When I say I do not care about making pugs better, I should clarify. I do not care about making pugs easier to accomplish the same goals as premade groups. Because the only way to do that is by nerfing content to where there is no advantages to premade groups.
Pugging will always be the harder and worse option. And forcing people to stay in groups of bad players not timing keys, does not make pugging better. In my personal opinion.
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…but ops suggestion will directly make the “toxicity” in pugging worse.
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The last one - Seething Shore - is universally disliked. I think that’s a design flaw. And some people don’t like Temple. DWG is hard to say because it was a different map before DH and Priests ruined it
You’re not going to get BRD again.
We werent getting a brd again before m+ came along.
I don’t think punishing leavers would be nerfing content. Unless you think leavers are a core component of Mythic+ difficulty?
The design decisions that lead to M+, I’m counting as all part of the same syndrome, and am using M+ as shorthand. “Boring hallway” was the first step.
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I am not here to make solutions for pugging to be easier for challenging content. That is intended.
The “challenging” part of m+ is finding enough players to play the game lol. We’re not asking to make the content easier, we’re asking to make it more accessible to find people to actually play the game with.
But these barriers will limit who does pug. It will make for a more negative environment for those that do pug.
This is currently what exists in the game. The barrier has never been higher from logging into the game to actually hitting the first boss of a dungeon. Why is punishing leavers a bad thing if the majority of the group wants to continue?
At least you admit that is your personal opinion on the matter. I disagree with you, but at the very least, I enjoy running M+ in pugs and the failure rate being higher than running with a guild/friends is just something I accept as part of the nature of running with a pug. What I can’t accept is how long it takes for people to find pug groups (not for me, I only play a healer, but I would like to dabble in DPS). And having to put up with leavers is not fun either, especially when it’s at the very last boss.
There is room for improvement for pug groups in M+, whatever that may be that we may agree or disagree on, and the solution isn’t to tell people to run with guilds/friends, and it never has been the solution for the WoW devs who have always introduced better tools and improvements for people to run premade group content with strangers.
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I’m gonna be honest… I kinda like it.
It is and it isn’t. They 100% need to improve the ability to find players with common interests. Then the goal should be for us to add those players to our friends lists.
If there are 3 competent people on one team, they can run the table. The reason the map is hated is because too many smooth brains just fight on the roads. I’m certain 1-2 people each match don’t know you can mine the Azerite.
I am not a leaver. I dont know the last time I ever left a group.
But If I go to pug today, and there is the threat I might get “forced” to stay in a 2 hour run because no one wants to opt to “surrender”?
I just wont apply to any pugs.
But M+ dungeons are not “boring hallway” dungeons at any higher rate than non M+ dungeons.
Even brand new Dragonflight ones.
I can put up my key and have like 40-50 apps in 5 seconds. Finding players is not difficult.
Why is a bad group holding someone else hostage a good thing?
Ok. For the rest of this conversation please put “in my opinion” behind every single statement.
Since apparently we aren’t going to go by normal social cues in a conversation.
And holding people hostage in a group fixes this?
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Its amusing to me this doom gloom vision the very small minority project on these forums vs the actual vibe in game.
I pug everything, even world content, I always look at group tool for custom groups.
I never wait more than a few minutes to play this game regardless of the content, and I’ve asked a lot of people in game about their experiences as well.
I play all content except mythic raid (my choice no other reason) and have zero complaints. Everyone I interact with ingame seems to be on the same page and has no complaints.
Then you come to the forums and its the same couple dozen doom gloomers doing everything possible to dramatically say this game is so horrible.
Why are you even here? If you hate wow so much, you hate the players, you hate the content… i mean what purpose do you think you are accomplishing by trolling the forums?
And?
Like… you do understand that BRD was considered forgettable and annoying Long before M+ was a thing right? Like it’s a dungeon that was part of Launch and people ran the crap out of it for over a decade before M+ became a thing.
I can tell you don’t play the game lol. Send me a clip of this and I’d believe you. If you have anything except a 20 UNDR this is a blatant lie/over-exaggeration. Try listing a +19.
But If I go to pug today, and there is the threat I might get “forced” to stay in a 2 hour run because no one wants to opt to “surrender”?
Make it so that you can leave after the timer ends then, I don’t care. The point is to punish people who leave well before that.