Yet you cannot provide an actual in game reason how dual spec would actually be detrimental.
Where as people have provided a number of reasons dual spec would improve game play, you keep acting like it’s just me, whereas the people in favor dual spec out number those like you who have vague undefinable reasons they don’t want it.
Honestly I’ve been giving one. It removes a choice consequence.
I’ve given other reasons too. As we have said hundreds of times - reasons are being given you simply don’t acknowledge them.
You have no reason to change the game except that its a feature convenience you like. So it’s my preferred game vs yours. Except I’m not pushing for my preferred game - I’m trying to put the argument not to move this game further away from it than it already is.
You want a change to specialisation - you think it will make the game better and I think it will make it worse. That’s the core argument. But you seem to think your idea of better is everyone’s, I’m under no such illusions. I know different people play this for different reasons.
Yes because reasons like “it removes a choice consequence” are something that you can deal with on your end by simply, you know not using an optional feature.
By opening up new areas of play it adds more choice for a lot of other players, that you have a very limited play style or happen to play a spec that doesn’t benefit from dual specs doesn’t mean the same applies to others.
Every day is ground hog day here. More choice in areas there isn’t meant to be more choice. Respec costs are a constraint. In RPGs constraints are good. If it becomes optional it’s not a constraint anymore …
By your logic any suggestion anyone makes should be put in the game because people can just choose not to use it? I mean, according to you if you want something and someone else doesn’t they can simply not use it and everyone be happy right? So, why stop with what you want then - why not extend that same justification to anything anyone may want?
We could also just choose not to play it. So could you. If the game gets changed and I feel less engaged in the world as a result - yeah I will stop playing it. That’s not a threat - simply a result of what will happen if the game moves further away from the kind of game I enjoy. I don’t think I’ll be the only one either. A lot of people came back to classic for the same reason. You don’t see them in polls and such but they’re there. There’s a wider audience than just the people who prefer the MMO part of the MMORPG. You think the change is good but many will not.
May or may not be a majority - but it’s a non negligible section of the classic playing community I’d wager.
I haven’t seen the numbers on that at all. Have you? How many people do you know quit the game and cited, “bots are ruining the economy” as the reason?
Just don’t go into any these expecting to “win an argument.” I don’t. There’s a cultural problem with it–people will actively reinvent reality in their minds to conform with what the want to believe. It’s schizophrenic.
Most of my back-and-forth with folks here are for the benefit of others reading these responses to gauge the people involved.
The funny thing is when they admit that everyone would use it by merit of it being available.
Did everyone have it in Wrath? Did everyone use it in Wrath in the manner in which they’re proposing?
It’s like they’re openly confessing they’d bend to peer pressure and accept something they’re vehemently and principally opposed to. And if they acknowledge that the grand majority would be using this, that’s an admission that the grant majority want to.
So they defeat their own position on all counts.
This reductionist tripe needs to be called out specifically. Not all changes are equal in how they play out in players’ day-to-day interaction with the game. A change to PvE content isn’t optional since it removes the previous PvE content in exchange for different new PvE content. PvE itself is only kind of optional in this game since you have to level and do a host of PvE things to even build up a character, but a change to a raid or raid boss or class balancing would not be optional like Dual Spec.
Dual Spec is more akin to buying bank slots, getting an epic mount over a normal mount, spending dumb amounts of gold on vanity pets/tabards, etc. Trying to liken Dual Spec to every other change while simultaneously arguing other changes are fine to leave in but Dual Spec is a step too far is just… asinine.
Being non-negligible != important to cater to.
Beyond the usual weekly “I’m quitting” threads we get, I bet we don’t see an iota of uptick of quitters if P2 snuck in Dual Spec as well.
This. They have to not argue quite this far along their logic (because it is damning to their case) while simultaneously demanding to be taken seriously as a vocal little minority regardless of how popular/successful the change would (self-admittedly) be.
It is entirely selfish on their part.
Ziryus will immediately receive his daily dosage of the Men in Black memory eraser pen the following morning going in to these debates, so despite the fact you utterly dismantled his argument right here, it will go fully ignored, sadly.
Additionally, this subtly dismantles the following argument he would make…essentially because to this he would say…
“Lots of people want it”
To which also has been dismantled because people wanting a change doesn’t therein justify adding it because this could be used to justify literally any change and is thus invalid as an argument for a change to a “faithful recreation”.
What’s more, he will continue to argue as if the change is inevitable and is already going to be added, and it is our responsibility to argue why it should be stopped, when it’s actually the opposite. We aren’t obligated to do anything. The game is as we want it right now. It’s his job to convince Blizzard of anything, not ours. Clearly he hasn’t done a good enough job yet, since it’s not in the game and hasn’t been since launch.
Then he will always make the following argument…
…Which has also been dismantled over, and over, and over, and in fact this argument has several layers of weakness.
By saying the feature is optional, you are outright admitting the change in and of itself is optional.
Changes they’ve made thus far have been made out of perceived necessity for the spirit of a faithful recreation.
Not having Dual spec is shown specifically, with support of actual documentation on Blizzard’s thoughts at the time, to be inherent to the spirit of TBC, and is thus necessary for a faithful recreation.
It can be described as nothing else.
It is an unprecedented change to a retro-game that possessed a definitive, well cited reason for not originally having it, and by extension, launching TBCC without it.
No other such change made has similar documentation as of yet. The justification for lack of dual spec has some of the most well documented reasoning available for why it was intentionally meant to lack it. The logic they used is easily transferrable to the now. There’s no way to say that the reasons they gave back then have no merit in the modern day.
In fact, you prove them right every day. Everyone whining about the gold cost or that it’s a pain, is exactly what Blizzard wanted with the system. They specifically, outright said they want it to be an inconvenience. Therefore, that inconvenience is inherent and important to a well-crafted TBC experience.
Does it suck to pay 50g every time? Heck yeah it does. Does it suck to redo your bars and stuff alongside? Heck yeah it does.
It sucks! That’s the point. They want to deter you from it. Since that was a core design facet of TBC, why do you think the modern dev team would essentially double-back on such an inherent, core, necessary feature?
What’s more, the argument that is “improves multiple aspects of game play” is absolutely silly.
That’s like asking the developers of a classic Mario game to remove lives because it removes game overs, which thus improves aspects of game play.
Yes, it directly improves game play by basically making the game easier, except making that part of the game easier is directly in contrast with the point of the feature existing.
Your reason for thinking the game will be better without a thing, is literally the exact reason the developers implemented said thing.
I trust the developers intentions more than I do the intentions of randos on the forum who have any number of their own personal convictions as to why TBC should be altered in X or Y way.
In my opinion, the best argument for the inclusion of any change and has been chiefly used for changes already made, is that without that change, the community would devolve in to a habit of toxic gameplay that was not a widespread element of TBC gameplay back during the actual era.
This was the change to drums. This was also the addition of SoB to alliance. The decision to leave bosses unnerfed is arguable as a “change”. This was also the change to feral energy.
The only ones this does not apply to is the 58 boost and the mount, both of these changes were widely criticized for being awful. They literally removed the /spit emote from the game after the entire lifespan of this game, because people were spitting on people too much with the mount. The 58 boost has been widely criticized, while only receiving the support from a small few who benefit from it because they’re using it as intended (to catch up with friends), but we all can see the negative effects that it has add in regards to botting and impacting server economies.
The PvP changes have widely been criticized as being awful, or even killing the first season of arena, and the verdict is still out on how it will impact season 2, but things aren’t looking good.
So you see, the changes that one could argue “weren’t necessary” but they made anyway? Could all have been argued to be an absolute disaster for TBCC.
This is what makes us leery of all changes, to be honest, but bad with the good. They’ve made a couple changes that we can get behind because of their necessity to keeping TBCC faithful.
i’m okay with some changes, like a dumb store mount, but not others, like dual spec. so what now? do you admit defeat or what. you can’t call me a #nochanges poster.
Its true the majority want it, really only the no lifers that live online want to be rewarded for their addiction.
Go outside, get some sun, dual spec WILL be added I enjoy your tears!
yes, in wrath
Keep pushing this outdate gameplay that has tried to kill SL and left classic and TbC a ghost town.
News flash - the bosses you kill every week - they’re about 14 years out of date …
But that’s the actual gameplay we came back to experience, well and outlands etc… Which dual spec would improve the experience of enjoying.
nerds will figure out a way to need tri spec.
"Blizz I need two different specs for this Black Temple raid and another spec for PvP I’m totally done going to the trainer, it’s been like 15 years, just update the game.
you think it will but it won’t
So we’re at an impasse. What opponents don’t get is that if all you have is “well I feel like it” and choose to treat proponents as mere feelings as well, then neither position holds much sway until Blizzard chooses to act on it. Proponents are mostly (there are always silly people) fine with this situation because they know that asking for a change isn’t a necessity and it isn’t critical to TBCC, but they aren’t barred from doing so either and Blizzard gets the final say.
The only reason we’re in this continuous loop of arguing is because opponents, not necessarily you in this post, continuously try to elevate their opposition above mere whim and gloriously fail at it. I get why that is appealing to do because it appears to give the posters some kind of power to handcuff Blizzard and prevent a change from happening… but it is entirely silly and inconsistent.
This.
All old content is not the same. The amount of special pleading that opponents engage in is mindboggling.
Your argument doesn’t follow at all.
There’s nothing circular about it. You’re just terrible at making a logical argument because you think Blizzard is constrained by anything at all… I don’t get why people have to assume facts not in evidence to make a point.
I, and many others, have already stated it would enhance our play experience greatly. Unless you have some way to refute that, you have no way to say this.
you think it will but it won’t
Neat.
Careful she might have psychic powers you can not even fathom.