Wings of Liberty (Avenging Leap) NEW ON PTR

Classes Paladin
121

Why would you want Consecration to still have full uptime but a longer cooldown, though? That accomplishes nothing more than if it had no cooldown, since you don’t spam damage-over-time effects anyways, all while adding further constraints. It’d just make it that much clunkier, since you could never move it until it had run its full (in this case, 20-second) course.

Tank moved mobs out of Consecration? Welp, you can’t recoup any of that now, nor can you use it simultaneously for damage and utility unless things just happen to align in your favor.

That’d be a objectively and purely a nerf.

122

Strawman much?

Huh, it’s almost as if you’d have a movement ability to make up for the tank moving.

Or are you pedantically going through every contingency without allowing the player to make an error and thus GASP fail.

123

There is no strawman in this. Look at the datamined Consecration, as the frame of reference into which this Wings of Liberty would fall.

Datamined Consecration has at most 30% uptime, as compared to the current 100%. It wouldn’t just be shifting the Consecration as a QoL measure; it’d be the equivalent an extra 1.33 (44.4% more) uses of Consecration per minute… at no opportunity cost outside of the mobility itself.

Unless Consecration is so underpowered as to not be worth casting on its own, yes, that’d point to offer Leap significant damage value.

It has nothing to do with skill gap, only with your suggestion.

If there is low maximum uptime on Consecration itself, and yet Consecration remains on the GCD and yet still worth talenting, then the mobility potential of Leap will be noticeably constrained by its damage potential.

The only way to avoid that while still applying Consecration would be to use the old/current version of Consecration, wherein uptime is potentially near-infinite because the duration nearly meets, or even exceeds, the cooldown.

On the other hand, putting a 20s cooldown on a 15s (“5 short of cooldown”) Consecration has, in itself, nearly all the problems of the current Consecration, while making it clunkier. Why would you want that?

124

Do you know what a strawman is?

125

Weird, because you said:

And I replied:

Huh, you said it first, weird.

126

If your position doesn’t align with what you’ve said, then what else do I have to work with? I’m trying to make sense of the damn thing.

The point you were responding to is one of Consecration’s relative uptime and the impact that’d have on the relative value WoL would provide via bundled throughput/utility (from the free Consecration) vs. via mobility alone.

Why would I assume that whatever “even if off by 5 seconds with a 20s cooldown” somehow doesn’t correspond to that?

But okay, let’s belabor the obvious again:

Any and every CD being left for 5 seconds can be rotationally “acceptable depending on how the numbers work out,” because there’s no point of reference. Acceptable to those content with a low parse? Acceptable in combat that’d last for many CD cycles? Acceptable only if the spec is overtuned and therefore the would-be relative costs of the new tool don’t exist anyways?

Consecration, in the only frame of reference in which Wings of Liberty exists, is 6 seconds’ duration on a 20-second cooldown. It has 30% uptime. That leaves 70% of uptime left over. Without any overlay, that leaves 40% of your uptime into which WoL can be woven for up to an extra 44% casts per minute.

The two, moreover, require only a single hold per 2 minutes in order to keep desynced. Which is a minimal cost easily tuned around… in PvE.

In PvP, though, they are far more likely to come into frequent conflict, because you’re far more likely to want WoL as an actual mobility tool. Yet, its power will most likely be constrained by throughput in those better-syncable situations.

And if the majority of the PvP value of the Consecration comes from the immediate utility it brings through affecting talents, you can’t just tune it separately for PvP in any meaningful way, because the duration and damage, both, hardly matter.

That makes it damn hard to tune in any way that would be balanced for PvE while simultaneously useful for PvP.

Unless “the numbers work out” to being overpowered, you’re now balanced for PvE around getting in near to 4.33 Consecrations per minute, but with that comes at opportunity cost/constraints to your actual mobility skill. 30% of uptime would have a deadzone (would wholey waste Consecration), another 30% would create partial waste.

  • On a low-burst spec that might be fine, but a spec as bursty as Ret is already going to have checks on its kit where its skills’ and damage profile’s relative value in PvP would exceed their value in PvE. Its PvP burst/utility value is going to constrain its PvE values, while its PvE throughput will doubtless end up constraining its PvP throughput.
  • That all means that there would most likely be little to no compensation for that part of our damage/utility being tied to a mobility tool that we’d otherwise rather save for actual mobility.
    • And getting that extra 44% Consecrate value (or more, contextually, especially in PvP) has to come from somewhere (e.g., something else we’d have gotten and then won’t).
    • Give free WoL-Consec → Get less Consec value in itself / via its talents (or similar value lost from anywhere else), and a less freely usable WoL. Etc., etc. Same as has been true every other spec with bundled value on its mobility.
127

I mean, if you can’t follow the argument and have to shadow-box some weird made-up argument, you do you.

You want me to make this simple for you?

Was the question.

Is the answer.

As long as you keep within that criteria, the leap won’t be used as a part of your standard rotation.

128
Again... None of those fix the issue/reality Arahgon mentioned, though, for the reasons already laid out multiple times now.

Making it exclusive, which was assumed from the start, doesn’t matter to that. It still increases your relative uptime of Consecration and/or saves GCDs otherwise spent.

Does not matter. One is free, and the other isn’t (and, with the actual version in which WoL would fall, increases total Consecration value by up to 44.4%).

You can’t spam your Ret-Leap anyways, so it’s not going to replace Consecration while moving. But it will can, regardless, add 10.0.7 Consecration uptime.

But (A) we already know we’re not getting that, and (B) the leap is still to be oGCD, while Consecration is not.

You respond to the reasonable premise… by simply breaking the premise (refusing to use the 10.0.7 Consecration as the context for the 10.0.7 ability).

It’s not hard, man. He simply pointed out that yes, strapping throughput to a mobility skill will constrain that mobility skill. That’s objectively true.

How often it’s worth it or not will remain to be seen, based on final tuning and the particular context, but that factor’s not irrelevant.

129

that doesnt fix anything, why are yall so hell bent on making leap drop a consecration to begin with? with consecration being still strong enough to warrent a gcd use, another way to proc consecration will be used in our regular rotation.

any attempt to make a complicated solution so it wouldnt is just a waste of resources and again encourages use of it out on cd to getr a consecration.

if leap drops consecration
with consecration a button on a 20 second cd. you are going to legit do

leap on rotation drop leap consecration, wait till it goes away, then instantly spend a gcd to press actual consecration. repeat every time leap is off cd.

congradulations, your mobility is now rotational. unlike demon hunter, this mobility is 45 secs long instead of a 7 second felrush cd

its better to just not make it proc a consecration

3 Likes
130

Cool. So in your weird lunatic babbling you ignore the changes I suggested, then go with the idea that it’s unchanged.

Guess what, the numbers change when you change the ability. Gasp

131

Yeah, no, it does. You don’t want it used in the rotation? That’s what the changes do.

132

Yes, as is obvious from the damage per second clearly not being in place yet. But the general shape of that change (to vastly reduce Consecration’s uptime so it doesn’t feel like mere “maintenance”) will not.

I covered the implications of each of your suggested changes, for both versions of the skill each time.

133

You do you bud, if you look I made no argument about the rotation’s specifics. Kind of weird to be arguing the rotation’s specifics before hard numbers come out.

In fact I argue the opposite, that we don’t know what the rotation is. I only argued how to keep Leap out of the rotation.

134

Hopefully I can offer a good third-party perspective on this Wings of Liberty and Consecration issue.

Increasing the cooldown on Consecration to 20 secs serves to accomplish a few improvements. One being to alleviate feeling the need to press consecration as a very common combat ability, especially in single target fights. Another improvement being to make Consecration function more like a somewhat impactful mini cooldown.

Building to the “ideal” damage component design of Consecration to function something close to - High priority to cast for gaining a damage boost at 5+ targets. Outside of this, you should only be pressing Consecration for damage in the case where every other generator is on cooldown, and you do not have enough holy power to spend for a finisher.

Then the question becomes, what is the purpose of altering the cooldown on Consecration to 20 secs? Because if the spell is not receiving a moderate damage priority boost, this translates to Consecration essentially receiving an arbitrary uptime nerf.

However, the trade-off for this increase in cooldown is stemming from the utility component of Consecration, not its damage component. With the objective of prioritizing Consecration for its utility component, over its damaging priority at 5+ targets in a high amount of scenarios.

The question now is, what are the utility components of Consecration? That is going to be for small healing while standing inside for party/raid members. Also more impactful utility options such as a snare to enemies standing inside/freeing allies of snares.

And now possibly more. However Blizzard chooses to further bring creative design to Consecration further with the revamp. This could be by influencing a damage increase to our other AOE damaging abilities or new beneficial effects for allies.

All of this to say, the purpose of tying Consecration to Wings of Liberty would be for its potential utility benefits. Never its damaging component. Especially in single target. It just also happens to be “nice” to have free background damage after leaping but does not contribute to throughput.

The only scenarios where you would want to press Wings of Liberty for a combat interaction for damage over Consecration is the following:

  1. When you happen to see a pack of 5+ enemies and you are not in range of them.

  2. When all of your generators are on cooldown, you do not have enough holy power to spend for a finisher, you have recently used Consecration and it is now on cooldown, and then you must also have a charge of Wings of Liberty and know you will not need to use it for its mobility component before it would come off cooldown again.

135

you are making a complicated loop around a easily solvable issue. simply dont put consecration on leap.

2 Likes
136

Nah it’s not complicated. Consecration already has a duration larger than its cooldown and only one can be cast at a time.

You could literally leave Consecration the EXACT SAME as it is now.

137

You don’t need the exact numbers to see an obvious constraint. It only varies how often that constraint will tip the balance.

No matter what, once constrained, any compromise will add waste and reduce how near one can get, in practice, to the damage the spec is balanced towards.

We know that Consecration will remain on the GCD despite now being on a CD. We can assume, therefore, it will be worth casting over at least filler attacks, or roughly the relative value commensurate to a 20s-cooldown GCD, which is typically pretty high.

Now, if something gives you an additional 1.33 of those 20s CDs uses per minute… yeah, unless they purposely break Consecration to not be worth putting on your bar, it’s going to constrain WoL.

I appreciate that, but…

There’s no matter of “A over B” here. The two are separate cooldowns. Like Divine Toll and Judgment, they simply ought to be staggered, is all.

At most you choose which to start the fight with (where the %uptime cost of Consecration is more affected by a late Consecration than WoL’s is by a late WoL for its consecration).

In PvP, yes, as noted before — snare (resistance) being the primary value therein. In PvE, not likely, as the snare (resistance) is rarely of any value; there, the damage is the primary reason for using Consecration, and therefore the primary reason for ever using WoL outside of its mobility.

Granted, I’m assuming that the damage tuning isn’t done yet.

138

Which would defeat the whole intent at play in its changes, notably:

139

except its not. ptr has consecration cd at 20 seconds and its duration is 12 seconds. live consecration doesnt matter. if ptr consecration was the same as life. then i wouldnt be here.

1 Like
140

The design goal here is that while they are separate cooldowns, you would only be pressing Wings of Liberty for either its mobility or utility component. Very rarely would it ever be for the purpose of gaining a “damage” boost from dropping an additional Consecration.

I do not play PvE but maybe you could help me understand by telling me what came of these scenarios.

With Vengeance Demon Hunters, did they always need to Infernal Strike on cooldown to drop a Sigil of Flame for the extra damage? Or did they traditionally use Infernal Strike for its mobility component?

With Warriors now, Heroic Leap does deal some very light physical damage. If you are playing a Warrior and every ability is either on cooldown or you do not have enough rage for a spender, should you use Heroic Leap for its damage component during that downtime?