Windwalker is Looking Incredibly Doomed for 10.2

Classes Monk
122

i read your post and agree with you, so dont take this the wrong way but…

who cares? who cares what the devs intended? all that matters is what we have to work with.

you cant drop all those talents listed because they offer SO MUCH POWER. they really want you to take a slingshot next to the neighboring F/A18?

designing that antithetically would not just be incompetent but irresponsible. so i hope thats just a speculative consequence and not the actual thought process they used.

like you said, if they wanted to experiment with how to add value, they need to do it at a base level first via core skills and talents.

tier is a tack on system and can only work alongside the underlying class philosophy and gameplay – the mastery fundamentally is not conducive to jamming extra globals into an already full rotation, especially on an rng basis unless theyre high prio skills… and that would blow out the burst profile entirely so ends up a dead starter.

heck with xbg, im clipping fof pretty regularly just because i know i can squeeze extra rsks with big crit (st) for faster and better squeeze. demanding a low value proc skill as a hook? its not attractive or fun but a friction of “well… now i have this ig and have to weave it between prio skills and totm stacking”.

(fwiw i feel totm is a horrible mistake because of how it cannibalizes the chi expenditure apl, but to quote blizzard on why they double down on bad ideas, “some people like it”)

2 Likes
123

How game design works is that the devs come up with an idea and try to implement said idea. Their goal was to radically shift the talent builds we use, but might not understand the mathematical intricacies of that design, and that’s where community feedback and numbers tuning comes into play.

Since there hasn’t been a dedicated WW dev, and it’s been heavily neglected, and they are likely constrained by dev time, its unlikely that the person making changes to WW has the depth of mechanical knowledge as you top WWs do.

I don’t think they want WW to be bad I think they might just not know how to fix the problems long term but they are probably considering how to avoid these constant buffs to our abilities and instead find a long term solution that satisfies the long term scaling issues that WW faces (as it’s not exactly ideal to continually have to calc and buff a class because that wastes dev time on new features which sell the products)

Likely what’s happening is they are working on changes on the order of rogue or pally rework for WW (because let’s be honest it is that bad or even worse than those 2 classes were).

Right now they are probably taking a lot of this feedback in and processing it (as they have done for MW all expac, the devs have been incredible about making a lot of good changes that the MW Community wanted to see)

Therefore, I am trying to propose a build that the devs might be intending for this tier set, and trying to ask stimulating questions that might align with their own questions (it’s not like they log on here and ask them themselves but if I ask and you guys respond then it has a small chance of helping this situation in some way).

With the goal of helping to continue giving feedback for the dev to make a better spec for us

———

If this is their hypothetical build, then providing counter examples as to why their design is flawed either mechanically or mathematically would be more helpful for obtaining relevant changes.

It’s a lot more realistic for them to make changes to their current design (which they understand more) than for them to scrap that design entirely and make a new one, hence providing feedback targeted for some build that synergizes with the tier set may be helpful (maybe idk it’s loss either way but can’t help but try in case it helps).

I really want WW to be fun and effective too because right now it’s not really either of those

To me it’s a really weird feeling that mistweaver has a better melee bamf feel than WW Does currently lol

124

It is absolutely a devs job to understand numbers

math iiliterate designers are simply bad at their jobs

8 Likes
125

I feel were you are coming from with wanting positive changes and design for WW but at this point it really feels like a dev swap is needed. If there ever was one after wod/legion.
The feedback is falling on no ears.

We have given feedback for the whole of DF about WW problems and nothing has changed. The first iteration of s3 tier is a great example. Auto attack procs don’t work well for WW as was made VERY clear in the feedback for WW tier2. After all the feedback last tier we still got an aa tier at first in tier3, no lessons learned.

No meaningfull changes have been made in the general tree or ww tree since DF BETA! We don’t have some god tier talent tree, it’s just “not monk” SL abilities thrown in with azerite powers. Instead of actually going back and looking at what has made WW feel good in the past.

We would still have to spend 2 (TWO) talent points for a 4% speed increase, in what world is that not deserving of some kind of change after a year of DF? Not to mention the issues with touch of deaths damage budget with the aoe and double use talents and the fact that it has 6 talent points for a conditional cd spread in both talent trees.
The beyond garbage cap talents in the general tree and a size increase on bdb as one of the cap talents in the WW tree? Chi wave/chi burst damage, or overall relevance? Soothing mist? 2 talent points for a reduced cd stun that’s still worse than an aoe stun from a DH? Monks should have been one of the first classes to get a talent rework! (Maybe personal) but a mandatory pet summon talent? FLS wannabe rune of power that it seems we are now doubling down on?

Looks like it’s a 11.0 waiting room angle tho and another “we hear you” from blizz.

Likely no changes to follow except an aura buff a couple weeks after 10.2.5 that brings us slightly above average and call it a day…

Not trying to attack you or anything but just in general frustrated with the WW situation and your defense of the “mythical WW dev” for being unable to comprehend numbers and feedback just made me want to add my 2 cents.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes, it’s 5am here and english is not my first language.

6 Likes
126

In the feedback thread and even this thread users have provided why the current iteration of tier set and overall state of WW is in a very poor state.

You keep iterating this is their hypothetical build, we need to provide why it is bad. We don’t even know if that build is what the dev intend. Either way though, feedback has been provided over and over and over for why it is a bad design and why certain things just do not work.

1 Like
127

Yea I know a lot of this stuff has been said before
I’ve tried to start a lot of my posts by recognizing that and that I want to see positive changes too.

Just adding my bumps to the thread

128

I’m still wrapping my head around this.

Monk: Hey, classwide stagger talent would be cool!

Blizzard: We hear you and added a classwide Brewmaster mastery effect, except for Brewmaster.

Are the player requests being lost in translation or maliciously reinterpreted? Asking for a friend?

1 Like
129

i’m getting laughed at for playing windwalker… seriously??? I love windwalker but blizz dont simply care. Only give love to DH,rogues,mages

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130

They intended for us to use far worse talents? WW is far behind most specs in most scenarios in perfect conditions. If they expected us to take worse talents then they should be fired because they are beyond incompetent.

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131

Please buff Windwalker.

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132

I genuinely thought WW’s were “fine” until I pre-ordered WarWithin and boosted a Monk intent on playing Windwalker. I was dead wrong.

What a colossal mistake, a legitimate waste of a boost.
Whoever actually claims they’re “working” on this spec should be ashamed to be honest. I can’t even wrap my head around how bad of an abomination BOTH trees are.

13 Likes
133

Week 1 of Amirdrassil is where WW was supposed to shine somewhat as we were still using our old tier set and were not heavily outscaled by the new item level. Unfortunately, we are already being crushed in almost all scenarios by a majority of specs. WW currently sits in the bottom quartile if not near dead last on a majority of fights at mythic difficulty. I understand that these results are heavily skewed by item level inconsistency, however this spec is only going to get worse as more gear is obtained.

9 Likes
134

buff my F’NG SPEC

9 Likes
135

My median parse this tier is 100%

Over 50% of boss pulls I get rank 1 out of everyone else in the world.

I still might be forced to swap to DH

Ty blizzard

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136

Hopefully we see a tuning pass next week once Raid World First is over. The best direction would be to give WW a buff to its mastery scaling ratio first, as that would serve as a better long-term solution. But in general, this spec already fell off week 1 in raid statistics. Really needs something, and not just a 5% TP buff or 3% BoK buff.

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137

the past week i’v been bashing my head against the wall, I’v had 0 issues keeping up on dps as a windwalker until now. I’m not even one to complain, but please… do something for windwalkers

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138

It’s the endless cycle of repeated failure that gets me. Do cycle through devs every patch? Seems like it. It’s like no one stays around long enough to learn their lessons from the last xpac. I mean come on man, if you know a bandaid buff is the fix, why not start us out with it rather than a few weeks into every patch. Piss poor development if you ask me.

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139

There are a couple fights my damage seems fine but most i would need 30% more damage just to be top 5. Keeping up with Rogue and hunter isnt an option unless they are eating floor.

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140

Speaking of the floor:

Bound for the Floor - Local H

This song is a true artistic masterpiece, reflecting the pining of Windwalker threads to be something greater.

But I have bad news… In fact, since AD&D, there are forces conspired against your very existence. Saying things like “Monk isn’t a realistic fantasy”, preferring instead to orient you towards a melee wizard than a perfected unarmed combatant.

In the arms race, the unprepared only prepare to die.

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141

I’d honestly prefer nerfs over an aura buff that changes nothing at this point. I’d rather they spit in my mouth than see another “Rising Sun Kick damage increased by 10%.”