The more I turn it over in my head, the more I’m excited at the idea of Sylvanas coming back. I want to see just how awful it will be. I see the train a’comin’, and I know the bridge is out, and I know it is going to just launch into orbit through eighteen orphanages spraying ruptured toilet tanks all over everyone like a Dave Matthews bus crossing a bridge.
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This is a good point, but riffing off this a bit-
No night elf fan should feel bad about it
Purges, ethnic cleansing, race wars, slay them all, concentration camps, sterilization and selective breeding programs are all part of the setting. If something is framed as particularly heinous, that’s a very subjective narrative on the part of the writer(s). Just enjoy the race/factions you like. Embrace or ignore/reject narrative beats you don’t like. Immerse yourself in the role of your character and enjoy trying to wipe your enemies off the face of Azeroth (if you want) without fear of being shamed for it on the forums because your favorite race is no worse nor better than any other.
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They almost certainly did not decide to do this by the time they made the Prepatch cinematic with Sylvanas promising to “free us all” instead of PUTTING ON THE HELM! Remember, one important theme of that story was that Bolvar thought she would wear the helm because she’s so evil but he misunderstood her. This was still when Sylvanas was being written as misunderstood.
And I highly doubt they had this half-cocked story in mind when Sylvanas told loyalists “Next time I see you this will all make sense”. Oh will it? Because I’ve seen you a couple times now and it makes even less sense.
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Quality post
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Bad story and/or poor implementation does not equal did this in a year.
Even if we say the story was cobbled together in an afternoon the amount of work required to get out an expansion could not have been done in one year. There is a reason we are on a roughly two year expansion cycle and have been for the entire history of WoW.
I think you are missing the point. There were seeds laid as early as the first patch. And Sylvanas having more power than she should have was a repeated plot point.
That is not strictly true. Nobody, to my knowledge, identified the Jailor or anyone directly. But her getting her power from someone else was a common speculation.
And the question is not whether it was obvious or even good foreshadowing. The fact it was there points to them having a plan before BfA was released.
What I don’t understand is how people can think that just because they didn’t see something coming means it was never planned. Blizzard could have done no foreshadowing and that still would not be evidence they changed plans last minute. Nobody guessing the Jailor does not mean it was a last minute change.
As I read your description of the train wreck that your are excited to see I have a couple questions. Are you okay? Have you thought about professional help? 
Though I think your description might be a bit tame compared to what is going to happen. It will certainly be a ___ show, obviously.
You think “Free us all” was a different motivation than ‘The system doesn’t give us free will, so we are going to remake the system’ that she talked about in SL? That is some grade A twisting.
Half is still not all. And they didn’t try to purge all.
While some innocent trolls died, that’s still not a genocide or attempted genocide.
This is pretty much like the Winter Soldier dilema.
Bucky Barnes was brainwashed and mind-controlled by Hydra when he assassinated over two dozen people.
When he regained control and escape from Hydra he went on his journey of making up for what he has done.
I don’t think Sylvanas is innocent. She can’t stand herself knowing what she has done, which for me is more than enough to forgive her and move on.
I don’t hold any grudges for her. Much to the contrary. I would like very much Sylvanas to return, but I think her return will be for a last farewell (but I’d save this for another discussion).
This has nothing to do with Sylvanas. Writer’s choice to make Arthas go away like that. Sylvanas having that monologue isn’t a problem, at all. She among them all is the one that suffered the most because of Arthas. First, her kingdom decimated and destroyed, she failed to stop him and at the end she wasn’t given a clean death, she was turned into his servant. Everything after that we all know the story.
Well, we don’t know that, for a fact. She will be bitter, yes. But I don’t expect her to be as apologist as she was and become like Tyrande’s puppy.
She will have her clash with Xal’atath, for sure. We still have Queen Azshara to be accounted for.
I can totally see Sylvanas leveling the field with Xal’atath and playing mind games with her.
Penance has nothing to do with that.
Even with her split soul she had her soft side. When you turn-in the the quest for the Lamment of the Highborne, which she throws the necklace away, then we have the in game animation of Sylvanas and her banshees singing the song, at the end there is an in-game emote in the chat showing that she picked up the necklace.
I think her time in the Maw will change her and harden her soft side, but that’s just a guessing at this point.
That’s irrelevant, to be honest. I’d actually want to know if you can explain the differences from then and now as well.
No.
She might be called upon before that.
You’re aware the group doesn’t have to be effectively slaughtered in its entirety for it to be called a genocide right
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And btw the Nelves committed genocide or at least ethnic cleansing against the Shatterspear in Cata
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This is the correct stance to take, but it applies to other claims of “genocide” and makes that accusation very hard to apply.
Genocide gets used “figuratively” so much and unfortunately, we apply to it the same weight in such cases, as we would were it used literally.
If Sylvanas’ inner monologue celebrates the evacuation of Darnassians (as I quoted from AGW earlier) can she be accused of trying to kill “all”?
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Son, you have a woefully incorrect understanding of what genocide is.
Especially if you think wiping out half of a planet’s worth of a race isn’t genocide.
Infact, if you’re not lying right this moment, I question how intelligent you’re capable of being.
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Sylvanas was my favorite character from all the way back in WC3 when she (attempted) to hold the line against Arthas.
Then I always enjoyed her as the token evil teammate in the Horde. Cataclysm Sylvanas was PEAK!
Putting her in the spotlight in Legion as Warchief was a dumb decision and Blizzard dragged the character through the mud in BFA and SL leading to the majority of the fanbase turning against her which is a massive shame.
To say all that I think her returning could be great, if Blizzard does it right. Find the balance of her character now that she is “re-souled”. She shouldn’t be uber evil Jailer’s sidekick anymore but nor should she goody good High Elf with a skin condition.
Have her return and eventually return to the Forsaken though, it hasent been the same without her.
While Chomsky has been accused of being a Serbian Genocide denialist, he has laid out some defining factors for genocide that includes intent to wipe out an entire race.
Others have argued that one needn’t intend to wipe out an entire race, but make ethnic cleansing from an area an act of “genocide”… And then there’s “cultural genocide”. Either way, if we apply the looser definitions of Genocide, again… That’s not unique to Sylvanas. The burning of Teldrassil is just another in a long line of horrible acts. We were just fortunate to have Christie Golden there to name it correctly.
He is, and so is Michael Parenti, and other left-wing figures. One of their biggest shortcomings.
It’s true.
Yes. I guess I should have said “He is a denialist but since I have no skin in the game and am a non-interventionist, I try not to have an opinion about the issue”
The Ranger General, in life, was more cold and calculated than cataclysm Sylvanas, if we account for the characterization explored in Edge of Night.
The Ranger General used living elves, the rangers she trained, whom she was charged with the care thereof, as arrows in her quiver. She used her beauty to manipulate and facilitate achieving her goals. After her death at Icecrown, she began to see things in a new light. While she was still toxic and calculating, and claimed that the Forsaken were her bulwark against the infinite, that was a bit of deflection because she certainly had become sentimental and attached to them as her people. She was clearly moved by their suffering, despite her claims otherwise. A sort of methinks the lady doth protest too much kind of thing.
If returning that immature, less experienced and less insightful part of her soul makes her better, that’s a bit cringey.
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Edge of night Sylvanas did not love the forsaken. She just didn’t want them to die for anyone but her. They were her shield against the infinite, not garrosh’s
i don’t think anyone is contesting that there was groundwork for shadowlands during some portion of bfa. it’s never been my contention. but let’s be clear, prep work specifically for plot was definitely light on the ground, especially in view of circumstances at the company.
lol no i’m not. did you understand what the nature of the assumption in question was? degas literally speculated that sylvanas had gotten greater power because she was working with helya, a thing that was not only true, but what you seemed to take issue with. neither he nor i are arguing that foreshadowing wasn’t present.
i think you’re increasingly abstracting this argument away from the original talking point because frankly your arguments are getting weaker. the plot point we were discussing was whether sylvanas’ motive in burning teldrassil had anything to do with her affiliation with the jailer, which btw is not the same plot point as simply whether she had a donor of power.
bro this is some stretch armstrong reaching right here
And then there is the Tauren Heritage armor questline that was kinda meant to be a set up to Shadowlands and … it went nowhere because the follow up questline got cut.
At the end of the day, nobody cares about these things.
She’s a recognizable and highly merchandisable character.
Much like the Lich King (which is why Blizz is always looking to reference him).