That’s a lot of words to say nothing. Even if Elune made it painless that dimishes the genocide zero. Which for the record I read all the lore since we talked and it doesn’t say that and you must believe me because “it’s somewhere in the lore” is good enough proof for you apparently. Night elves lost their wives, parents, kids, homeland, all property. If you think the short lived pain of actually dying is why genocide is bad You are missing the point. I’m still what… 3 for 4 calling out races that have not committed genocide. Which, if you were the person I was talking to originally (I’m not looking it up), makes you 1 for 4?
Looool. What did you think was happening any time anyone won any military campaign in the history of this universe? Every time someone loses it’s not “genocide” or genocide is meaningless.
This is a world where people live long enough to see their children become warriors and there’s relative gender equality. The emotional appeal of “wives and children” is meaningless in this context. Every time a young soldier is killed, it’s someone’s child. Every time a female commander is killed, it’s someone’s wife. When the Alliance lost South shore, why wasn’t that “genocide”? I’ll tell you why-- there wasn’t a story written by Christie Golden where she reached for the top shelf on words, as she tends to do.
You want to argue that burning Teldrassil was unforgivable? That’s fine. That’s good story. That’s actually what I would expect them to write when they said the faction conflict is fundamental and the fans said the faction conflict makes no sense. Unforgivable sin is the missing ingredient! But the burning of Teldrassil isn’t in some special class of war crime all its own. Not as written. It’s not unique. It was intentionally played up for dramatic effect, but we can’t sit here 5 years later and act like it’s still all that special. Not in an academic discussion where we pretend there isn’t bias.
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This is a good example of what is wrong with most of your takes.
You decide something is likely based on your own head cannon and then judge things as though that is 100% accurate history.
Sure it is.
Teldrassil was not collateral damage. It was not a military target that Sylvanas was trying to take out and just happened to have civilians. It was captured territory that Sylvanas decided to destroy, killing everyone in it. The death of civilians was the point.
In any war, wiping out a civilian population of a captured city would absolutely be considered a war crime.
Think of it this way: When the Allied forces captured Berlin civilians died, as collateral damage. It was not considered a war crime. But, had the Allied forces, after capturing the city, decided to burn every home, kill every civilian it would have been considered a war crime.
Tedrassil was absolutely a war crime. Something that was well outside just being war.
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I want those responsible for the suffering of my favorite races punished. And everyone who was alive during the war of the ancients is still around which is the point of immortality. There is no such thing as an innocent elf or human in this game.
Not sure if it is possible for you to more directly scream that you are hopelessly biased and nobody should take anything you say seriously.
Also, fun fact: If you actually look at the history, punishing those that are responsible for Troll suffering would involve punishing a LOT of Trolls. The various Troll tribes fought a lot of wars with each other.
For example: The Darkspear tribe was attacked constantly and eventually chased out of Stranglethorn. The aggressors? Amani, Skullsplitter, and Bloodscalp tribes. All Trolls.
Later when the Zandalari tried to rebuild their empire it was the Darkspear that saw them as a threat and served as the motivating force is stopping them in both Zul’Gurub and Zul’Aman.
That is only a couple examples. There are lots. Trolls have been pretty hostile to other Trolls for a LONG time. So, are you for punishing the Trolls for causing Troll suffering?
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Elves and humans did the most damage. Azshara and her empire. The Windrunner sisters. And of course the Arathi line of humans. And last time I checked the night elves from that era are still alive.
Me as a person bias is nothing against the blatant bias for the pretty races Blizzard had since inception of the game. Whenever they need trashmobs you can be sure it is either trolls or orcs.
Your bias is what makes you believe Blizzard has that bias.
At least you have admitted your bias. That might be a first step that will eventually let you see past it. Judging by your posting history, that wont be any time soon. But maybe someday.
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Sylvanas return being good or bad will depend on how well Blizzard can do it story-wise. Their track record is not the greatest with story telling as of late I am afraid.
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Individual Night Elf families lost their property, sure. But there were other Night-Elf-held territories that were not invaded in the War of Thorns and that the Night Elves as a group didn’t lose. Hyjal, parts of Winterspring, parts of Feralas, Val’Sharah, probably more that I’m not thinking of at the moment.
Not at all. I have no Power
Darnassus was in fact a strategic target. It was meant to be a very risky gambit to take control of the alliance foothold in Kalimdor. The death of civilians being the point was this lame, tacked on re-framing later, after the community complained that Sylvanas would be justified because it was obvious to everyone that there was a coming justification (and that genocide isn’t justifiable). The original narrative showed, in black and white, that the plan specifically stalled the invasion of Darnassus to allow a maximum amount of Night Elves and Worgen to evacuate, keeping a minimum number of hostages to stop the Alliance from genociding Undercity. The Horde did not have the resources to police a captive population of any significant size and hold the city from would be liberators. That’s not my head cannon. It’s spelled out in AGW. It’s also why whatserface in the WoT cinematic is like “What? Why? There’s no one left!” Darnassus was practically evacuated before it was burned. It was burned because the Alliance would rally around Malfurion and Tyrande and there would be no way to hold it. That’s it. The whole campaign was a waste if they didn’t at least destroy Darnassus.
I’d argue they should probably try to tell as little story as possible.
Don’t absolve her. Don’t try to persuade us about how we should feel about her return. Let her return be a fact and let the community decide how they feel about it. Let other NPCs express anxiety, apprehension, anger. Her return can be a quiet side story. It doesn’t need to be this big hype moment. She can pop in. Kill some baddy. Then slip away with her loyal entourage for about 5 or 6 patches.
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It would really only make sense in another death themed expansion. Or midnight but that seems a little early to bring her back
I’d suspect she’ll get an Illidan-esque return
That could certainly work and I would be fine with it.
Join Sylvanas Windrunner and her Sylidari to hold back the void forces on the Smoken Moor!
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Too bad dark rangers are a hero spec rather than a class unto themselves
Wouldn’t make much sense. They’re basically hunters who use shadow magic
I’d play it.
Capturing Teldrassil would have fit that description. Burning it after the capturing it was a war crime.
Sylvanas burned the city at the end of the assault. That is not going back and reframing. The actual event was Sylvanas doing a genocide and Saurfang being shocked. That is not a refrain because of community feedback.
That was Saurfang’s plan. It wasn’t what Sylvanas did. Which was a big part of the narrative being told. There is a reason he reacted with surprise when she said to burn it.
There is a reason most people don’t consider Saurfang the war criminal for it. It was not his goal. Sylvanas was the war criminal. And arguably those that followed her order to fire the catapults and burn the city. Of which characters like Saurfang would not be included in. He was shown to oppose it.
She did not say there was nobody left in the city. That is made VERY clear. There were no defenders left. All of the Soldiers were dead or gone. The city was defenseless. Which is why it was so bad that she burned it.
Here is the actual comments:
Delaryn Summermoon: Why? You’ve already won.
Delaryn Summermoon: Only innocents remain in the tree.
Alliance PCs are told:
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Take my hippogryph to Darnassus. Ensure that the Horde’s occupation is as… tolerable as it can be.
Then there is the heart wrenching quest to save civilians, of which you can only safe a tiny fraction from the city, let alone the outlying areas. And when you wake up after failing to save very many you find even the portal area is burning and you barely escape.
That is just from the game during the event. That is before we even talk about the short story talking about to many people and to few portals.
Blizzard made it VERY clear at the time that Sylvanas was killing the majority of the civilian population in a city they had already captured.
That is trying to refrain the story. That is not what Blizzard showed in game or in the stories released around the event.
I generally agree. However, there are a couple things that would have to be addressed and not just hand waved away.
Is she done with her task of recovering souls? If not we need a VERY good reason to have her leave the Maw. Otherwise they would just be creating narrative issues and community frustration for no good reason.
And you need to address what brings her back. Why did she return at the right time to help?
After those key points are addressed, leaving much of the rest of it unknown is fine.
Biggest thing here is that it would make no sense for anyone to welcome her back. And it would be important to show the other characters treating her return as at best a necessary evil. The ‘all is forgiven, she is now a hero’ would arguably be worse than the ‘Draenor is free’ moment.
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