So i’m confused do you dumbass’s think im defending calia
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yeah i mean this certainly does read like ‘nuggets.’ my point isn’t whether u’re interpreting these things correctly, i just disagree w/ u on whether this constitutes ‘interesting.’ probably some of it is simple and pure snobbishness on my part, and it’d be dishonest not to own that, but i just do not find this kind of characterization profound or even really novel. if i wanted character studies i would play a different game. the arc of arthas is archetypal, but in it you find the sort of worldbuilding which made warcraft so initially appealing. sylvanas has never had that sort of magnetism abt her writing, it goes the opposite way. at least, that’s how i’ve interacted with her as a forsaken main from classic to about warlords. the idea of her being warchief made me switch to alliance.
No, I’m agreeing with both of you.
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What genocide did the drenai commit? I can keep going.
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oh then i retract my comment then and apologise
Or she comes back and just gets a send off like Malygos/Sindragosa.
Baine ignored genocide when he punished the Tauren after the attack in Taurajo
If she dies, she’ll die for Quel’thalas.
But given how Quel’thalas is being given to alliance high elves and void elves, if she has to die for someone it should be for the forsaken.
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Quel’thalas will not leave the Horde so don’t worry.
Quel’Thalas being given to the alliance would be a giant slap in the face of Horde players and that’s the reason I know Blizzard would do it
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While I do kind of agree. It raises a couple questions I am not entirely sure where I come down on yet.
What about all the non-scourge that were raised afterward? Are they Forsaken?
Starting in Cata the Forsaken were raising new undead. Ones who had never been scourge. Ones who didn’t have any family, friends, or nation still around to forsake them. Would they be considered Forsaken?
How about the outreach that is happening between some members of the Forsaken and living relatives. If they get accepted are they no longer Forsaken?
At some point it has to be that the name Forsaken is just the name and no longer a description. At least not for all their members. But when does that happen? You can argue it kind of already has. But, the forsaken aspect of them still has to be a big part of their culture. It raises some ideas that would be interesting to explore.
What is it now that really makes a Forsaken a Forsaken?
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Before you go and try and paint the Alliance as a collection of super-duper loving and accepting people—the majority of the living representatives who showed up for Anduin’s Gathering outright rejected their undead kin and told them to their faces they considered them still dead, and the person standing before them was no one to them. Even Genn Greymane the top Forsaken hater, thought it was pretty harsh to watch.
The reason Calia gets flak in this particular instance, is not the fault of the character, but the fact that she was robbed of the experience we’re told she desires by the author. She claims in her introduction to so desperately wish to empathize with and understand the people she knew in life, now in undeath as the Forsaken.
One would imagine that since the goal of her story was about trying to desperately connect with her former subjects, by the end of the book she would inevitably end up dead in a ditch, covered in mud, and wake up in shock, alarm, and confusion. The classic Forsaken experience. Whatever extra qualities she had from that baseline, would be of her own agency and talent, and not granted by some deus-ex machina.
Given that the author was told that the goal was to make Calia a quote-endquote “Light-Undead” and before this point in time, there was no concept of such a creature—merely single cases of Undead using the light while under great pain—the author had every avenue to explain how the character of Calia came to have that special quality.
And she chose that it was given to her in the warm embrace of a gathering of friends, the people who cared for her most and a literal being of Light. No mud-baths for her! She is a princess after all, and only the comfort of an adorned slab bed in the chapel would do for her rebirth back into the world.
Now Calia has returned to unlife, glowing and perfectly preserved like she’s made of marble. Exactly like the other Forsaken, right? Yeah, no. So, she immediately fled Stormwind and sought out her people after her reanimation, right? Well no, she’s no rebel leader sneaking into the Forsaken diaspora and gathering support to end the war and win back the hearts of her people.
Instead, she stayed within the comforts granted to her by Anduin, Jaina, and the Alliance, the lap of luxury, sequestering herself in a safe place until such time that she could make her grand re-entrance to the story, when Voss was inexplicably curious about what happened to Derek Proudmoore, after Baine handed him over to his sister.
So, basically Calia’s “connection” with her people is about the same as yours and mine with Jeff ****ing Bezos.
Heck, I forgot that as a living woman, Calia apparently had constant nightmares and PTSD from the Scourge and her brother overrunning Lordaeron. But when she became undead, the nightmares were gone! Her undeath had the byproduct of restoring her mental health! Yeah, I don’t know of any other undead who received that sweet deal added into the package.
The Forsaken didn’t rally around a rich aristocrat when they regained control of themselves, they rallied around a military leader, a person with a easily defined goal, and a score to settle that they all shared.
Calia’s “goal” is not the goal shared by her people, it’s her own goal. She wants to understand and “help” her people, which is nebulous in its description. Help them with what? What is she doing to help them? Basically, I go by Belmont’s explanation: Calia “helps” the Forsaken by being the face Anduin and Jaina will have to commit to punching if they want to be aggressive with the Forsaken in the future.
It’s sad really, Calia really had a number of possible and creative methods to become undead and still be defined by her connection to the Light. In my personal opinion, she was given the least creative, and the least empathetic—if her connection to the Forsaken was the intended goal. As a Forsaken player, I have little to no desire to “connect” with her, instead I actively loathe her visual and narrative design.
Is it any wonder why Blizzard has conveniently pushed her into the background and brought Voss into the forefront instead? Everyone’s convinced she’ll pop back up if the Arathi Empire keeps raising these “Light Undead” of theirs. At least those poor souls seem to have an experience similar to the typical Forsaken, though I’m weary of what effect being a “Light Undead” will have on their demeanor and whether it will make them different from the typical Death Undead of the Scourge/Forsaken mold.
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It’s weird. It’s seems like yes. They both have to have strong will to maintain sanity after being risen (and not turn into ghouls) as well as choosing to join the forsaken, as well as continuing to be rejected by the living humans of Stormwind AND being denied the very right to exist by their warchief. In addition, Voss is among those, which I already covered.
If Quel’thalas joins alliance you just know Blizzard wants the Horde to die on purpose.
They’re not taking a horde capital away and giving it to the opposite faction. It’s literally never been done before.
Some people made the same claims about lordaeron going alliance when the Retaking Lordaeron quest was first announced and that never materialized
Y’all need to stop with that garbage claim.
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We are beyond the point to trust Blizzard mate. They will do stuff to upset the Horde on purpose. All of BFA and TWW intro questing til first raid is proof of that. For some reason someone high up at the dev team enjoys making half the playerbase feel like crap.
My dude, they’re 2000% forcing the horde to share t with the alliance at minimum.
We’d never shared a city until recently and that was to set precedent they could point to when the horde bleeds even more for the alliance to gain.
if they made dalaran neutral at some point to service the plot, i see no reason to think something wouldn’t happen with at least some portion of silvermoon. my guess is that they’ll instance the neutral section and leave the old overworld of eversong/ghostlands, but it’s possible that they overhaul the entire northern part of EK. at least, that’s my hope.
We know Midnight takes place in Quel’Thalas. We know that, at minimum, the Thalassian elves are going to come together. We know Amirdrassil is neutral despite being owned by the Night Elves. While I am 100% confident it (Silvermoon) won’t become an Alliance or truly neutral city, it might become a joint habitation by every variety of Thalassian elf again (Blood, High, Void).
My guess is Dimensius will invade via whatever is going on with Beledar, and plunge the rest of the world into void/darkness. Quel’Thalas will be the last holdout thanks to the Sunwell, and the rest of the world is going to be dealing with the sort of stuff Hallowfall does when Beledar goes void state.
Regardless, HOPE YOU LIKE ELF CONTENT, WEEEE DOGGIES! And if you think it won’t continue being the Allerianduin Circus Hour, expect to be disappointed. Plus the boring Windrunner no one likes. With a late patch cameo from the Windrunner a lot of people used to love but everyone will absolutely despise now.
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Well, yah. But the number accepted is not zero. I was not suggesting that it was a lot.
I don’t disagree with that. I am not a proponent of Calia’s current position. Even if we exclude the name issue, and we call her a Forsaken, she shouldn’t lead a people for whom she cannot understand the plight of the majority.
My post was not about arguing for Calia’s position on the council, it was just the subject just raised an interesting question. There are now multiple groups with different experiences. Obviously there are the original Forsaken that were part of the scourge, broke free, joined Sylvanas and named themselves Forsaken.
But what about the ones that were raised later? Never were part of the scourge. All the people they ever knew were dead or also undead. Their kingdom was gone. There was nobody to forsake them. But they are still raised with the same magic. Are they Forsaken?
What about the small group that do get accepted by living friends and/or family? Maybe they were forsaken. But if they are accepted by the living, are they still Forsaken?
And what about Calia and any that follow like her? (Ignoring the leadership question, again she shouldn’t be a leader.) She was raised with a different magic. There is some difference. But there are also a lot of similarities. And she is trying to become part of their society. Should she be called a Forsaken?
At some point the name has to encompass more than just the description. Think of it like the United States of America. That name was originally based on a description. But Hawaii is not part of an American continent. It is still a state in the United States of America. Plus all the pacific island territories. As a description they are both not states and not part of the American continent. But they are still part of the county of the United States of America. The description part no longer fits all of the countries parts. Similarly at some point the name Forsaken may not accurately describe all the citizens that go under that name. I would argue there are already some exceptions.
So, what is the line? What is needed to be considered a Forsaken? Honestly, I am not sure. But it does make for an interesting thought.
I think that is where I come down as well. Though there is still some question in my mind of just where the line is.
Right now I even think Calia could be easily considered a Forsaken. Though again, she shouldn’t be a leader. She has a lot left before she has ‘lived’ the Forsaken ‘life’ long enough to really understand them enough to lead. But being enough of a part of their society and culture to take the name, sure.
Though I am open to arguments against it.
From interviews and things Blizzard has said it is almost certain that the whole area is being overhauled. It might still require going through a zoning screen to get there. But I would expect a significant overhaul to Blood Elf lands.
My guess is that only part of the city will be open to the Alliance and, like the Horde get in Bel’ameth, the Alliance will get a being watch buff/debuff.
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