Varian launched a war and invaded the Barrens because he thought the Horde did something similar at the wrathgate, but god forbid the Horde ever get to acknowledge Alliance wrongdoing.
It was worse, at least in ICC there was an active war declared by Varian and no real expectation of mutual cooperation except where the Argents forced them to.
This is why I think Stormheim is a good example of a faction conflict event - it was 100% a diplomatically wrong move, so the Horde has every justified reason to feel righteously angry about it, but the move was clearly a reaction to past events and was so emotionally invested (and ended with such a cool cinematic, even though only the lamp got smashed) that the Alliance can feel it was worth it nonetheless.
I do wish the scenario had more follow-up/fallout, though. So many of the arguments about it here in the forums would make great talking points for NPCs to argue about it in-universe. Iād love to see pro-Genn debaters trying the āwell, we knew she was up to something because of that boat wreck in Azsunaā and āwhatever Sylvanas was trying with Eyir would have angered Odyn, robbing us of an important ally in the fight against the Legionā arguments even though everyone is sure those arguments were a) purely retroactive and b) are assumptions instead of proven facts. But, since the general Alliance population likes Genn better than the Forsaken and is happy to see the Banshee Queen stymied by one of their own, they nod along with these sketchy arguments - which, in turn, is reasonably seen as completely unacceptable to the Horde.
Iād also love for a scene where Anduin tries to punish Genn, only for the other Alliance leaders to stop him on the reasoning that Alliance leaders are equals and the High King has no direct authority over them. The Alliance gets a scene about not being an empire, while the Horde gets a scene about how Genn gets off scott free for attacking their Warchief and this is why they canāt be trusted (a scene confirming that in lore, instead of leaving it to be inferred and thus up for argument).
When you lay it out like that, you make me see how perfect the whole Stormheim scenario is as the setup for a faction war. It leads me to wonder if it could even have been intended that way, as discussions were probably underway about the next expansionās storyline by the time it went live. But then it all got swept under the rug when Afrasiabi had his ābrilliantā idea to pin responsibility for starting the next war squarely on Sylvanas.
Which is an odd echo of the way Varian declared war on the Horde after the Wrathgate and then that was also walked back in order to pin responsibility for starting that war squarely on Garrosh. Or maybe not so odd after all.
This. It also whitewashed Gennās characterization from before they diluted the narrative. Genn was a vengeance driven, man with animal impulses that he struggled to contain. His primal outbursts, while relatable, were a great plot device for keeping the extremely important faction war alive and giving the alliance some share of the blame instead of always making it āWell, the alliance just has to get rid of the evil dictator on the horde side and then we can have peaceā.
Downplaying Gennās actions during legion, and reconning AGW are the kinds of story beats that made me skip dragon flight and now Iām struggling to learn to use my damn flying mounts! Thanks Blizz.
I think that it was just too resource hungry to create two narratives. One from each perspective. It was a great experiment. It was so well executed. It worked so well that a lot of people still think that the alliance narrative was the whole picture. It is exactly what the game needed if they really cared about the faction war as a foundation stone of the franchise. But it wasnāt cost effective and doing it in two books (AGW and Ellegy) was ineffective.
I would be elated if they went back to that style of storytelling, honestly. I think the fact that I read the novellas before seeing the War of Thorns cinematic really made me enjoy BfA more and I think giving the players that through in game cinematics would heal a lot of discontent.
I donāt think we can blame the way the story was executed on Afrasiabi. The dude was in charge of some great storytelling. Like he said, he wrote Sylvanas for years. Much of her actions leading up to the war of Thorns were completely characteristic of her. She was full flavor peak Sylvanas in AGW. Everything she did that didnāt match what we knew about Sylvanas in relation to her character growth was also extremely on brand for Sylvanas. She is always a bit bipolar, masked and guarded when it comes to emotions. She always says she feels nothing for people and things that we know she actually feels strongly for. For as long as she has had a custom model.
Afrasiabiās personal actions created a storm that Iām surprised Blizzard even made it out of, and that likely affected the narrative. So he is indirectly to blame. The leadership changed in the middle of telling a very controversial story. It is unrealistic to think that they could have executed that well. Ending up with Zovaal (who I refuse to believe was even a concept at the start of BfA) is really a very mild consequence when you look at the big picture. They could have screwed up worse. Or at least, itās a testament to fans that WoW made it out of that era alive.
Being killed in battle is not āassassinationā. Being killed by throwing yourself in front of an arrow not intended for you is also no āassassinationā.
This is objectively not true.
Except that the Horde players find the same journal and donāt turn it into the Alliance. The Alliance version of the story is not canon of the Horde one.
All they saw was the Horde retreating. Any number of reasons (including the actual truth) were possible. Assumptions about motive are assumptions.
Yes. The Horde committed an act of war and Glineas was justified in responding. Just like the Alliance committed an act of war the Horde was justified in responding.
I actually agree with all your post except for this partā¦
Sylvanas WAS trying to kill Genn, but his son Liam jumped in the way. That was an assassination attempt on Genn though.
Killing someone in a combat is still not āassassinationā.
But Iāll give you this. Once Genn had started the war, Sylvanas became a legitimate target in that war. Of course that means admitting that Genn started the war.
I donāt blame all of it on Afrasiabi. But all available behind-the-scenes leaks say that he was the one who conceived of the War of Thorns/burning of Teldrassil and pushed that story through even over the objections of a significant part of the writing staff. And as the person in charge of the story, he clearly had no interest in building on the implications of the Stormheim incident to explain how the war started. He wanted it to be all Sylvanasās decision without any provocation.
You can debate how much it is or isnāt in character for her, but itās extremely clear that giving Horde players a reason to feel like the War of Thorns was necessary or justified was not on his list of priorities.
IF the War of Thorns has a different endgame, there is nothing inherently wrong with that event in the greater story. The worst part of the war of Thorns was the lack of a satisfying exposition explaining everything. Yesā¦ Be mad. We get mad at good stories all the time. Be confused. Mysteries are an enduring genre of storytelling. But storytelling is a game with rules. If your game is also a storytelling medium, you have to follow those rules and it seems very clear that they did not. That the Shadowlands we got (where in the explanation for the War of Thorns was to be expected) was not the Shadowlands Afrasiabi intended. Hell, the trailer cinematic for Shadowlands seemed designed to promise that exposition and what we got was Zovaal. You cannot convince me that Zovaal was the secret hidden motive foreshadowed in AGW.
Not a single good thing about the war of thorns or any of the following story, afrasiabi simply wanted to burn the setting down out of spite
Itās fine if you believe that but I highly doubt thatās true.
People donāt typically do that. Especially considering there was hardly anything to be spiteful over.
For a book or a movie, maybe. I donāt believe there was a way to make it satisfying in a game with two playable factions where neither side is intended to be the evil side.
Agreed. From what weāve heard from behind-the-scenes leaks, Afrasiabi departed without leaving behind any notes about his long-term plans for the story. If he even had long-term plansāhe may have been still deciding what would happen next when he was unceremoniously removed.
If the rest of the writing staff didnāt know what his plans were, itās a safe bet the freelancers who wrote the BfA novellas didnāt know either. Iāve always thought the vague hints at a hidden motive for Sylvanas were the writer leaving an opening in the story to be filled in later, without knowing what was going to be fitted in there. So in that sense (if Iām right), nothing was the thing that was being foreshadowed.
There were also leaks that described a MUCH more satisfying SL that made a lot more sense that was eventually scrapped. Who knows if any are true?
Personally, Iām suspicious of arguments that āit was like that when I got hereā or āThe other guy did it before he quit.ā
Havenāt heard about this. Do you have links?
In the case of the stories of what happened behind the scenes with Afrasiabi and the War of Thorns, multiple separate YouTubers reported hearing the same thing from multiple people working at Blizzard. Itās about as well-substantiated as you can get with off-the-record leaks. I believe them.
I think we can deduce, from the things that couldnāt be changed about the Shadowlands certain things that were very likely. 1- Zovaal is not in the trailer but a massive figure is. There are things about this figure that are reminiscent of possibly the primus. 2. The Primus invented domination magic. The bane of Sylvanasā existence. 3. The ājailedā was not the ājailer.ā Thatās silly. 4. The factions of the SL were supposed to be at war with one another.
Itās very likely that, from those things which are true, we can find circumstantial support for the leak that said the Primus was the mastermind and leader of a conspiracy to dominate the Shadowlands alongside Muehzala, Denathrius and Gorak Tul. That the primus was the jailer. And that there was a ājailedā who Sylvanas met or whatever and he enlisted her help to destroy domination magic once and for all, but in the first act of Shadowlands She realizes that she messed up and starts trying to make amends. Blablabla
ā¦
Anywayā¦ That would have been a bit of a nightmare, because they underestimated the backlash surrounding the war of Thorns from both sides and even the horde members didnāt want to see Sylvanas get an explanation or motive that made any kind of sense because people in their rage were confusing relatable motive to excuse.
This all goes back to what was discussed earlierā¦ If you tell the story from 2 perspectives in game, no one has to be the good guy, and someone can even be wrong. The narrative just has to make the player feel right. Justified. You canāt tell a story like the War of Thorns and have everyone doing the same quests. Watching the same cinematics. There has to be 2 sides. You have to show horde players why it was necessary to invade and show alliance players how unprovoked it was, without overlap until after the fact. Not guilt players while they are immersed.
What was underhanded? Unsavory perhaps? Idk. One can choose to side with the titans, certainly. But that doesnāt make what Sylvanas was doing underhanded.
Unlike Genn, Sylvanas puts all forsaken forces on the task of saving the world, save for a small personal entourage. If anyone did anything underhanded, it was Genn.
I think most people consider the attempted enslavement of Eyir as being underhanded. But I also get WHY she was doing it, being able to create unlimited valākyr meant she no longer had to worry about the forsaken dying out. Or herself dying permently. She would have her bulwark for eternity
And I also get why Genn did what he did and I honestly canāt fault him for it. If I was in his position, I probably would have done the same thing.
So I understand both sides.
If it was out of spite, heād have killed tyrande and/or malfurion.
No one cared about the world tree until it burned. The burning was just for spectacle. Afrasiabi was stated to be treating BFA as if it would be wows last expansion, so he was just trying to be as bombastically stupid as possible.