How is it shaping up on the PTR for DK?
I know right now
Mages
Warlocks
Druid
SHAMAN
(even Hunter?)
has a place in the meta for upcoming 11.1
But DK seems to be a bit hard to tell, I see some good feed back at times but I also see the naysayers give a different point of view.
We talking raid, pvp, or mythic plus?
From testing on Myhic Plus, I think frost will still be very strong. (even more so since shamans are still going to be meta and their buff to other classes is strong af for DK). And the tier set adds even more to your strong cleave.
But Frost in general is getting a big buff, so the cleave is already excelled at in Mythic plus will be even stronger. PVP wise it loses the stun, but unless they nerf the new talent will get kills still.
Raid it will be okay. The ST scaling is still meh, but at least you have cleave.
I can’t speak on UH. I didn’t test it.
Unholy will likely be in a decent spot for raid damage. They’re getting some good baseline rotational buffs. Not one of the top meta specs, but not hanging out on the bottom few specs on every fight.
Frost is also getting some buffs but they’re not enough to put Frost ST damage even up to Unholy’s level as it is on live which is sub-par. The Frost buffs need an increase to make Frost do decent DT damage.
The Frost buffs on PTR amount to like a 8% ST dps increase and Frost is like 15-18% behind top specs just on raw output alone not accounting for the RNG nature of Frost. The RNG is so god awful with the Shatter build that in a 5 minute dummy test, I can end up legitimately doing 100 MILLION less damage than Unholy. Thats utterly unacceptable. Its why I refuse to play Frost outside of M+ and even there, I stick with the 2H Rider build.
They really need to take the Frost buffs and more than double them or its not changing anything. So Frost will remain a non competitive spec for Heroic and Mythic raid. Especially since Unholy scales better than Frost does so the gap will just get bigger as we get farther into the raid. Oh and Unholy actually does even more damage when the bosses HP is low thanks to Reaping and Soul Reaper. Frost used to do more passive damage below 30% thanks to Merciless Combat but chalk that up to another ability Blizzard needlessly took away.
You know what i mean don’t be disingenuous. Frost main rotation is spamming 2 buttons with an occasional 3rd proc 90% of the time. Nothing to track, couple cds to worry about and everything they do has some kind of cleave bound to it. It’s brain dead. Which allows you to focus more on mechanics. That play style has no business being meta. I can argue the same about BM hunter and Havok dh.
1 Like
No, I don’t know what you mean. I took what you said at face value. Your argument was that because Frost is easy and has few buttons, it doesn’t deserve to be a good spec.
The argument is laughable IMO and is outright wrong despite you clinging to it after being given the evidence.
Is Frost easier than Unholy? Debateable. Unholy doesn’t have constant decisions like Frost does with KM Proc priority. You have 2 KM procs and a Rime. Which one do you use? You’re potentially wasting another proc no matter what you do. So whats the move? Unholy is easy in that you have a clear priority that doesn’t change. Keep dots up, keep pimples up, Death Coil when needed to avoid capping RP, keep Death Rot up and Don’t waste Sudden Doom procs. Easy to remember. Neither spec is what I would consider difficult. But the fact is that the number of buttons you press between Frost and Unholy is minimal.
You’re entitled to your opinion that Frost shouldn’t be meta, but your given reasoning is straight up wrong and I’m entitled to point that out. So if you have a better argument for why Frost shouldn’t be meta beyond “I don’t like it” then I’m all ears. Until then, I choose not to respect your stance.
8 Likes
he chose to call out BM hunters when mm has always been significantly easier. Like you have two heavy damage spells you press on cooldown vs. multiple instant casts which have differing priorities based on buff states.
Like movement isn’t really skill expression, its something you learn in mid tier content or you never advance, if it still requires mental effort that you can’t manage it while maintaining even the most complex dps rotation then thats a sign you’re focusing on the wrong things.
The only thing I would say frost (and now ret) have going for them is cooldown frequency, longer cooldowns give a bit more nuance with lining for mechanics, pillar and wings/wake you just settle on your segments and commit to them for the fight. I think if breath were tuned around 3min cd it would enable a bit more expressive gameplay, at 2/matching empower I think its tuning remains too weak to exploit mechanics, especially considering its power is brought on by the drawn out nature of the spell vs. gargoyle which offers more with timing the ending around priority windows.
Most specs revolve around a 2-3button rotation.
Remorseless winter stacks
RI
FC
DB
Frost fever (mostly passive but good to know when new mobs spawn)
Maybe you mean “I don’t track these”?
but you 100% should
Try ret
BOS?
Since when has difficulty of a spec been the deciding factor of what’s meta? There are no hard specs left in the game 
6 Likes
Can’t tell if Mortarion is being serious. Frost being 2 button spec seemed like an exaggeration… until he said certain playstyles have no business being meta…
Yeah… Uhhh… Not a good take.
5 Likes
you forgot ret paladin, the new easiest spec in the game.
It is, but not a big one since people want it to be a 1 button spec. Over the past 2 expansions people have wanted to pile in more and more damage into Obliterate.
If we look at ability usage in a single target fight, Obliterate is the most cast ability and Frost Strike is used less than half of that and Howling Blast is roughly the same as Frost Strike.
So really anyone taking the “2 button spec” as a literal statement and not a broader statement saying that 3 buttons make up the vast majority of the spec is the problem here.
Its a 3 button spec with some extras thrown in and its a majority Obliterate spec making up almost just shy of 50% of the entire button presses.
So yes, Mortarion is correct here. Its a 2-3 button spec.
1 Like
That problem was only created by throwing away the differing rune system for an all death rune system.
Blizz can only blame themselves for that one.
1 Like
The spec was still a 2-3 ability spec. In Wrath it was Obliterate Frost Strike and Howling Blast and in cata it was the same as well just different abilities being the top damage contributor. The rune type really didnt have much to do with it.
Understandable, but ultimately ridiculous sentiment.
What expansion are we even in!?
2 Likes
Ignore Kel. As usual, Kel doesn’t know what they’re talking about because they don’t play the game.
Obliterate, Frost Strike and Howling Blast make up roughly 40% of your damage even if you’re running a 2H Obliteration build with Obliterate itself being just shy of 30%. So factually, the majority of your damage comes from other sources.
Hell, its very possible for Remorseless Winter makes up for more damage than Howling Blast does depending on how well you can keep it active.
At 620 with 2h Obliteration on a 5min segment on a dummy, my breakdown looks like this
Obliterate - 27.3% (86% crit rate)
Frost Strike - 8.4%
Thunderlord Citrine gem - 6.1%
Melee - 5.6%
Undeath - 5.5%
Darion Mograine - 5.5%
Nazgrim - 5.1%
Icy Death Torrent - 5%
Trollbane’s Icy Fury - 4.8%
Remorseless Winter - 3.8%
King Trollbane - 3.7%
Chillstreak - 3.7%
Howling Blast - 3.6%
Frost Fever - 3.2%
You get the picture. So sure, Obliterate is your highest contributing single source but its also firing off Glacial Advances, increasing Howling Blast via Rime procs and Remorseless Winter via Gathering Storm talent. So just to re-iterate, Kel doesnt have a single clue what they’re talking about. Theyre just salty that not everybody wants to play DW BoS and feels that any other subspec threatens its existence. So they take personal offense to anyone who wants to play something other than that and spews factually incorrect nonsense anytime Obliteration or 2H comes up. Which is especially weird since they don’t even play the damn game in the first place.
2 Likes
it was 4-8 depending on the situation, You needed to keep diseases up for maximum damage.
It was:
open with icy touch and plague strike(one frost & unholy rune), if more then one mob use pestilence ( 1 blood rune)
Once your diseases is all applied Your focus turns to obliterate unless rime is up, if rime is up cast howling blast. use blood strike between to turn your blood runes to death runes to cast another obliterate. cast frost strike when all runes used to use up your runic power. all the while watching your diseases to make sure they do not expire, if they are about to reapply them, for without them your obliterates won’t do full damage.
It was 3 abilities as the majority. Thats the point. I even said that there are other abilities that you do use. Its just the vast majority is from 3 buttons.
Wrath was Obliterate Frost Strike and Howling Blast.
Cata through WoD was Howling Blast, Frost Strike and keeping a singular unholy rune on CD to force Runic Empowerment for death and frost runes so every once in a while you would plague strike (or Obliterate though harder to work in and was only used with a KM proc). This is talking about the best damage output and not the most fun way to play or taking into account the entire spec.
In Wrath you used Icy Touch and Plague Strike once per fight. You shouldnt ever use them any more than that. Presilence also wasnt just for spreading diseases, it was for refreshing them and the easiest way to use it was every other rune cycle you just used 1 blood strike and one pestilence but it should be used every 4th rune cycle.
There are other abilities used now too… but that isnt actually the point. Yes you have to use these other abilities to get the most out of the spec, but the vast vast vast majority of the abilities used is 3 abilities. 1 making up almost 50% of all button presses with over 80% crit rate in the first tier of the expansion. But its crit rate has to be that to actually get anything out of the ability because KM rank 2 has too much power packed into it.
Kelliste. Look, any DK player back then will tell you if you only focused on those 3 skills, your bad. Diseases needs to be up. You needed to convert blood runes to death runes. And you also needed to keep horn up (which i forgot to put there) there was allot more going on with DK’s back then the so called “lol 3 button spec” everyone likes to use to bash every class with.
3 Likes
Frost has no business being meta when its a 3 buttom spec and every single spell has a cleave aspect on it and its the same rotation for aoe and ST(even more retarded rotation for breath build since you get to ignore one buttom for its duation).
L take buddy
Opinion disregarded.
3 Likes
No, you are just misrepresenting what I am saying because you think the 3 abilities as a majority = you only used 3 abilities. Thats not what is being said.
So read more than just 3 words and then respond to my posts.