I mean, a lot, but you’re giving the vibe of someone who isn’t actually here for this conversation regardless. Just throw Saurfang and Kael’thas into the mix and we’ll call it good enough.
No, that’s just some strawman you’re creating because you missed the good humor of the post you responded to, and now that you’re realizing my initial post was in no way Anti-Alliance as you’d hoped, that you’ll somehow turn this non-discussion into something else.
No thank you, not interested.
What? Was the cinematic not about Genn and Tess? Was Calia not literally the biggest appeasement puppet ever? Did the Forsaken army even show up? I saw the 7th legion in full force. ONly reason Forsaken were there is to say how sorry they are despite these two having nothing to do with it.
My only point was that your original post was silly in that alliance characters also have died and the retirement trend hasnt been a thing until not with Genn. Sorry didnt realize you were straight up joking. Pretty used to people saying dumb stuff like that with full conviction.
The only thing I can think of adding any more to the OP and all the discussion on this quest, and I could probably say this in a few threads by now, is adding the Scarlet Crusade as the antagonists of the quests was a good call.
Hear me out - this isn’t a ‘wo is me’ Forsaken who doesn’t want to be slapped around by the Alliance again. Far from it. I saw one suggestion that bringing Godfrey back out of nowhere (just like they did Warden Stillwater) and having his own little Forsaken separatist/Scourge army and thought it was a pretty A+ idea. (Make him an enemy of Calia too and I might have joined up with him). Rather, I still believe Scarlets make compelling enemies and their focus/attempt of taking over of Gilneas is a natural narrative progression for them.
I’ve mentioned at various lengths how the Scarlets can/should/have come back, grown, and reestablished their presence in the Eastern Kingdoms. At some point I should really do a master list of it all. Anyway, the projection of the Crusade has been from noble/“noble” aspirations fighting the Scourge, to zealous and paranoid Scourge fighters cleansing the unclean, to actual xenophobic (albeit successful) Scourge fighters fanned further by Balnazzar. They were outwardly successful, all the followers are lost in the sauce, holdings safe and secure, and their military force formidable.
Looking to Gilneas as this source of ‘unclean’ monsters that plague the living isn’t far fetched, nor having concern in their twisted minds that the Worgen of Gilneas, much like the Forsaken of Lordearon, are no different than the Sons of Arugal or any other feral worgen. Add the fact that the Lich King at least can bring back Worgen into undeath reason enough for them to burn them just the same as any potentially compromised or unclean human. Given Schrodinger’s Gilneas going on 10 years, I see no reason as to why Scarlets wouldn’t find a relatively empty kingdom and setup shop. Even if it was just a splinter force.
Yes, they were out of nowhere and the Worgen have yet to have any meaningful interaction with the Scarlets. There is no denying that. However, the quest doesn’t suffer from who you’re killing as much as it is who you’re helping as has been thoroughly discussed (worgen in human forms, Tess, Calia, Voss, the lack of so many characters, any real worgen/warewolf feeling, the bare bones completed phase, etc)
If they’re really this intent on making the Crusade a thing again, and as I’ve mentioned a number of times, it is almost fully logical given the setting’s events that people my flock to them in relative droves once more. This is just another extension of that. How they’ll actually create the Scarlets as a force to be reckoned with rather than plopped in quest fodder is an entirely different story (cough Alterac cough, I also go something for Tyr’s Hand cooking).
We need more persistent 3rd parties in the world if we ever want to break this cycle of cosmic world ending events and overt faction wars. The Scarlets can, and should be, just one instance of that.
Based on my experiences with the questline, I do think the Scarlets have… reason to be present in Gilneas. At least if you’re willing to believe that them permanently establishing themselves in Northrend is unsustainable. I’ve always thought they’d eventually try and return to Lordaeron, except between the Forsaken, Ebon Blade, and Argent Crusade, there’s no where for them to reestablish themselves.
Given that Blizzard waffled endlessly about whether or not Gilneas was a toxic wasteland, or a Black Dragon hideout, or completely filled with Forsaken expats, I’m also glad they decided it was relatively intact. Meaning that an empty nation that’s being abandoned by it’s occupiers would be my first choice for a base of power neighboring my enemies.
If I was the one to work on it though?
First of all, there would be Scarlet and Gilnean/Kultiran ships in the harbor in a full blown naval battle. There’s the Alliance participation since the Scarlets had to have sailed down from Northrend, so they’d have ships surrounding the coast. 7th Legion keeping the Scarlet Navy occupied works well enough for Genn and the Worgen to make landfall.
Calia and the Forsaken are to help to uphold the promise made to Genn? Fine, have the Forsaken army near the Wall, and be pulling a faux retreat. The Scarlets, being zealous in their hatred of the Forsaken give chase into the northern woods of Gilneas. Fill the area with fog and then have the Worgen ambush the Scarlet Vanguard from behind in the fog. Have the Worgen Commander be Crowley because northern Gilneas was his land. The Worgen can’t lose the opportunity to cripple the main Scarlet force, so by the end of the first phase of the battle, the Scarlets are caught between the Forsaken ahead of them, and the Worgen behind them.
Once the Scarlets rout, Crowley and Calia meet at the gate. They can exchange words and Calia can offer to come with and help. But the Forsaken Army is outside Gilneas now. The rest of the battle would be up to Crowley, Genn, and Tess, with Calia offering her assistance. Now the Worgen will siege the city and they’ll do it their own way. No tanks, no bombardments, guns optional.
They just clamber up and over the walls and rooftops like the horrifying bloodthirsty beasts they can be. Have the Scarlets in the city set up their barricades and stakes, and watch as the Worgen just go over or around them. Jumping down from the rooftops on top of guard patrols, grabbing lone Scarlets in the alleyways and snuffing their torches. These are creatures of the night, the battle to take the city should take place at night.
Scarlets exhuming the Gilnean graves to purify them? No, lame. They’re not the Forsaken. Instead have the Scarlets keeping caged members of Ivar Bloodfang’s pack, whom will be put to death soon. Break them out, meet with the Bloodfang, bring them in as reinforcements. But then it happens. The Bloodfang are relentless and rabidly attack anything that looks like a normal human, mistaking them as a Scarlet.
And Tess is a normal human, and that’s enough of a reason for a Bloodfang to attack her. Of course she wins the fight and disables her attacker before retreating into a building to check herself. Her arm is bleeding. It wasn’t a flawless victory and the realization that she’s been bitten dawns on her. She wraps up the wound and soldiers on.
Boss fight against the Light Fanatic proceeds as usual until the Light Fanatic changes into a big light monstrosity, and then blasts Genn and wounds him badly. Tess is triggered. Cue the transformation. The Scarlet leader is defeated and Tess flees the scene. Genn recovers, and tracks her down. Cue the Daddy-Daughter talk, except now Tess doesn’t need to guilt her father over the Wall, but instead the fact that his concern for her only spiked once he discovered she was cursed like him. Repair their relationship as intended, Genn passes on the crown.
HAVE A CROWNING CEREMONY TO FINISH THE QUESTLINE. Come on, it’s just NPCs standing around watching, it’s not that taxing. Leaders are passing on the ruling of nations like it’s parents handing off the keys of their old car to their kid as their first vehicle. There are steps that must be performed, you can’t just call yourself the Queen now offscreen… Calia.
Okay, that was a lot more than I intended, shutting up now. I just would have liked a bit more… a bit better.
THIS. Instead of rehashing the Scarlets (which as someone else pointed out, at least made sense in the Forsaken heritage quest), if they didn’t want to have a splinter faction of Forsaken the enemy, what about the feral worgen that should still exist? Making Tess the leader isn’t a problem for me (she was the heir anyway and it was nice getting a little acknowledgement that Genn’s been a fairly cruddy father what with the whole “well my son died, let me mostly ignore my daughter and go find myself a new surrogate son to dote on instead” ), but her being the leader of the worgen while human doesn’t sit quite right.
If the enemy had been feral worgen her getting infected accidentally during the fight would’ve been a nice bit of gravitas- accepting responsibility of leading her people and adjusting to the curse at the same time (especially after being talked out of taking it willingly).
Now that I think about it isnt the Worgen reclamation almost exactly like the Troll reclamation of Echo Isles?
LMAO.
Is that not true though? The Worgen curse isn’t genetic and it would be pretty monstrous to spread it to your offspring intentionally to preserve a cultural and racial gimmick.
It’d be like giving people AIDS to stop it dying out.
At least the reclamation of the Echo Isles ended a 3 expansion long playable issue that most every Horde player was familiar with, had Vol’jin lead the charge and stay in charge, introduced our beloved Bwonsamdi, got fun toys, a title, and was given a brand new update with the coming expansion. Real quality for Wrath era questing tbh with a good follow up.
15+ years later and Gilneas was somehow worse. Yikes.
No it’s not. AIDS doesn’t give someone superior strength, better hearing and eyesight and a superior sense of smell. Let alone makes you bigger and stronger.
The two aren’t even remotely comparable
Are we back on the Worgen Curse not really being a curse again? I can never keep track of Blizzard’s stance on it.
That is genuinely the most impressive part, in full honesty. They somehow managed to make something worse than reclaiming gnomeregan/reclaiming echo isles.
It’s a curse, but a common quote amongst worgen NPCs is This curse is our strength. It’s not something most are ashamed of.
Besides, comparing it to AIDs, a deadly disease, was in poor taste either way
What?
The Worgen curse is like a pair of glasses.
No one is born with them, and the wrong pair will harm your eyes, but the right pair will do miracles for you. Thankfully, with the right doctor, you shouldn’t get a bad pair.
You don’t have to give glasses to your child, but if done correctly, it always makes things easier for them.
Granted, I have never rolled a Worgen character, I’m just going off the curse being turned into a strength, just as the Forsaken have done.
Katherine Proudmoore started the trend actually. She retired and let Jaina succeed her while Rastakhan had to die in order for Talanji to ascend to the throne.
Between Tess, Shandris, Jaina, and Talanji, only one of them had to mourn the loss of her only living family member while the other three have at least two living family members each that can council them and lend support.
I’m also going to add Sen’jin onto the list of dead Horde leaders.
The last thing I remember about it was they tried to paint the curse as a bad thing to…Tess Greymane? Hence the question.
Yep, that was the Worgen heritage questline. And almost every Worgen player that I saw, myself included, had the same reaction;
“Why are you making us feel bad about the race we chose to play as?”
And that ties back into the issues I mentioned in the above post; Blizz seems to want to abandon the werewolf motif, the thing that most Worgen players like about Worgen (I mean it’s pretty much their entire seeling point), and say “Oh don’t worry, it’ll be gone soon.”
I can’t speak for the Worgen community, but my understanding of curses is that they suck to have, at least a little. I mean I totally see the appeal of playing a werewolf. I’ve played a number of tabletop RPG’s give you character points for choosing a drawback/flaw, so picking a setback is encouraged. I genuinely think playing a cursed character could be fun from a storytelling perspective.
I guess I don’t understand why the Worgen curse being treated as a curse is necessarily a bad thing. Isn’t that part of the fantasy? Like the Hulk is OP and does a lot of good heroic stuff, but it’s a huge inconvenience for Bruce Banner and oftentimes other people. But his struggle is what makes him a compelling character. I don’t see what’s wrong with that kind of story for the Worgen. There are tons of people playing as the Dark Urge in Baldur’s Gate because sometimes having a drawback enriches the storytelling experience.
The Forsaken are in the same boat, just with a different affliction. The game portrays it as being a miserable experience for them, but that’s part of the fantasy and it draws in a lot of players. Being a worgen has likewise always been considered a curse. I think it would do a lot of harm to the fantasy if it was portrayed as something desirable to have, like a pure boon. Wouldn’t that just be a blessing? Wouldn’t that be counter to everything we knew about worgens and werewolves before?
However, I do think worgen players are right to want their leader to be a Worgen. Tess should become Worgen, but have it either be an accident, or a sacrifice she makes to serve her people. Don’t go the Calia route and make it easy and comfortable.
I don’t know. I think making the curse be not fun to have is good storytelling and gives the worgen depth. I’m far more interested in that story than “Hey, lets all get cursed! It’s awesome!” But again, this is an outsider perspective. I don’t play worgen.
The difference between the Forsaken and the worgen though, is the worgen made the curse their greatest strength . They aren’t ashamed to be worgen, like the forsaken are ashamed to be undead.
For characters like Ivar, it’s something to be prideful about and why be mad at having superior strength, smell, sense of hearing, eyesight and be stronger than you were before?
For a curse, there is literally zero downsides from a narrative perspective. So it’s soo bizzare that blizz wants to get rid of a a playable race so badly
Well this just isn’t true. Yes there are a lot of boons to becoming a worgen, all ones you mentioned! But the drawback is the rage.
All worgen have that innate desire to hunt and kill that they have to sate. And while the ritual gave them control it didn’t get rid of the rage worgen feel. Make a worgen mad enough and they will transform against their will and lash out.
Genn even states this at the beginning of the worgen heritage quest. Sometimes he fears being around Mia and Tess out of fear that if he got too mad he might change and lash out.
So there is a downside to being worgen, it is a curse. Having to deal with that constant urge to hunt and kill, and the rage, would suck. The problem is Blizzard sucks completely at showing this. They are masters of telling and not showing.
Which is why I agree with this. Being a worgen SHOULD be viewed as a curse. It shouldn’t necessarily be something that every Gilnean wants to have.
HOWEVER! As Karestae said, the biggest thing about the Gilneans is they turned the curse into their greatest strength. That’s what makes the Gilneans cool. And Blizzard should have played into that more. Yes, being a worgen is a curse. BUT, it’s the Gilneans pride and hardheadedness to survive that took that curse and made it into their greatest asset.
So in my opinion, there should be a cultural change where Gilneans are given the option to become a worgen if they choose because it is such a big part of their culture now.