Because some players think that if content they don’t like will help them do content they do like, they’re being forced to do it. That’s not really true, we all have the ability to choose to play how we want.
Weve had later bosses drop better loot before and for sure personally that’s something I like, the upgrade system is even more equal than before because very rare items dont scale higher. Valor also didnt let you upgrade items to max mythic quality if I remember when it was a dungeon thing.
I would be curious if you could find that many players that do mythic raids and feel because of it m+ is not enought rewarding when a very strong majority of mythic raiders do m+ because its very hard to justify not to do m+. Only for crests its very unavoidable, for easy hero track gear its still up there and when you can somewhat easily get 3 max vault first week vs raid.
While you’re technically right, you’re functionally wrong. If this was a single player game you would be entirely right. It isn’t, it’s an MMO, which means there are social and competitive pressures in play that alter how people interact with the content.
View the problem from both perspectives.
From the RL perspective
If you don’t progress fast… you can’t get recruits… and thus have a miserable experience trying to progress eventually leading to your guilds demise. The only way to avoid this is to yield results. Having better geared players increases the odds of yielding results.
From the raiders perspective.
Having better gear increases my odds of performing better numerically. This reduces my odds of being sat (assuming equal skill between players) or even being kicked from the raid team.
From BOTH perspectives it’s advantageous to acquire as much gear as possible, and in both scenarios doing so has knock on effects that tend to spiral upwards or downwards. Taking that into account… while people aren’t literally forced, they are functionally forced.
How much of a factor is that in play? Depends on the level of difficulty the team is attempting. In general the higher the difficulty the more this comes into play. I’d say at the casual heroic guild level, that’s when it’s very clearly noticeable to see the difference between the haves and have nots.
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This is the same argument for Delves.
But the bigger picture is it is only a net plus…
If you are the type of player who likes delves and get hero gear you may have just reached your pinnacle. But it could also give you some drive to go into the mythic plus world. And again that could be the pinnacle of your play, but it could also make you want more which leads to raiding. Which again is a net plus because it can only open the door to a larger player pool in other content.
Your argument about gear being useless if you are able to obtain said gear in an easier way is inherently flawed. What really keeps people playing the game is ones desire to prove they are better then the guy below them. The reason people run mythic, really isn’t for the gear. Sure it’s a reason, be it a relatively small one.
Sure if spymasters was obtainable through mythic plus keys for example. Would I do that to get it, absolutely. But, once I get it I would stop doing mythic raids.
The far more alluring part I think to players like it or not is the number Chase more than the gear Chase. In fact you could argue mythic plus is more the gear Chase than raiding is. When I raid with my guild what people brag about in discord is being top dps, top hps, what number our guild is on the server.
Delves arent really completing with m+ and raids at least in the later endgame. From the start devs have said they were not meant to be. Its content made for a certain crowd and trying to make it scale higher would make it not.
Because people want to play the aspects of the game they enjoy, go figure.
As for the rest, fun is subjective. You cant tell me I dont have fun a certain way when I surely do. That’s not how fun works.
As it stands it absolutely does. I would argue even more than mythic plus affects raids.
Mythic plus starts at 7 because of delves.
Blizzard said they were going to address this but it does affect it.
Now you have people with zero io at 619 item level who have never done mythic plus queuing for 7s because the gear they got from mythic plus means doing anything less than a 7 isn’t an upgrade.
Now mythic plus players aren’t going back to delves but if they were too it wouldn’t be for gear.
But this is also the reason I say numbers is the real Chase. Let’s say the player above gets invited to a 7 key then fails miserably. That player is gonna get picked on or harassed even. Not because of the loot at the end but because they didn’t preform wether you time the key or not.
It’s about balancing the end-game rewards. In Blizzard’s own words:
It doesn’t make sense and it isn’t fair if one end-game content is significantly easier to get the same level rewards than another that is much harder. Either make both M+ and Raids easy to get top tier rewards or make them both equally difficult.
You might not understand but to put it lightly, up to heroic gear progression gear simply hasnt mattered since m+ got added.
Mythic gear progression for me is the biggest fun part. Sure there are overlaps probems before mythic raid ilvl, but nothing as far as raiding go that didnt exist before and that m+ hasnt done to raid.
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First of all, you can’t queue for M+.
Second, this has been a long-running thing with the segment of WoW’s playerbase that is myopic and selfish: focusing on “where are my next upgrades?” instead of “what should I be doing next, in terms of my skill and abilities?”
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Meh, 2 different styles of gameplay.
Im a raider, I could not care less about muhpluh. its dull and unintresting gameplay. And I am not going to do it.
By that token, I can fully see why people who prefer m+ think the same about raiding.
i agree and think that’s most of it. if you don’t enjoy raiding, it’s not much fun having your best pieces come from raid. if you don’t enjoy m+, same deal.
personally i just don’t really enjoy raiding anymore. i used to love it and was in a CE guild for a while. oddly, i disliked m+ a great deal at the time. now i’ve completely swapped, for whatever reason. i get aotc with friends or pugs every season but that’s as far as my interest goes.
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Yup, and so I push M+ with what I can get from just M+.
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no, it isn’t irrelevant at all.
are you a mythic raider or not?
if you are, then you know that it is arguably the most difficult content in the game. the expectations of that raid leader is that you are all in. that means that you will do whatever you need to do to be ready for the content.
you WILL run m+, or delves, or pvp, or grind renown or whatever the guild/raid leader requires that you do to earn/keep your raid spot.
you do this because you know that if you don’t, someone will take your spot.
mythic raiding gear is better than m+ gear. 639 >636. simple.
i don’t currently run the true end game content (i.e. high keys or mythic raids), but I have run its equivalent years ago. and I know what was required.
sometimes what was required was to go out and engage in activities that had nothing to do with gear.
it might have been spending weeks on getting an attunement. or running 40 man raids hoping you get the drop that 39 other people were also there for. sometimes, it was grinding specific mats for a specific mechanic for a specific fight. we farmed these things for hours because that is what was required.
if you are competing for a specific limited raid spot, then that is the only situation in which your gear relative to my gear matters. but even then, that is within my control. if I want that raid spot, then I will do what it takes to get it.
and since that form of the WoW rat race no longer interests me, I don’t play the game that way anymore.
but if you do, then you need to do whatever it takes to earn that spot.
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There’s a critical difference, though:
- Mythic raiders need M+ gear just to finish the raid.
- M+'ers don’t need Mythic raid gear to finish M+ (i.e. doing 10’s, or maybe 12’s). They only need it to “compete” with other M+'ers who are essentially taking off their gear when doing keys, because reasons.
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Well, they need it if they are trying to push through as fast as possible. They could take their time to gear through and from the content, buy why do that when it’s so much slower?
It’s just semantics, but feeling pressured isn’t the same as being forced. It isn’t so much being forced to M+ as it is choosing to play with a team that expects you to use every advantage to obtain gear. I don’t see it as players being functionally forced when it’s the result of how they choose to play the game.
There’s no “arguably” about it.
People like to point at “oh a +18 key is so hard” but the mechanics for M+ stop at +12. Anything past that, you’re just taking off some of your gear to do the same thing, just comparatively undergeared.
A similar thing would be if people were doing Mythic Queen, but not using any weapons or whatever.
But nobody does that, because it’s an absurd notion. That Blizzard has conned a bunch of M+'ers into worshipping it as game content is remarkable.
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Find me anybody working on Mythic Queen where nobody on the team is using M+ gear.
Good luck!
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