DF is not even out yet.
Anyway, any class, any specs, would be able to beat KSM or AOTC. However, Meta Specs as always be would be the favored for CE or KSH. Metas are favored but it doesnt mean non-metas wont be able to do CE or KSH.
Stop overthinking. Sky is not falling.
Interesting, I would think the sky is constantly falling, via how hot air is rising and cold air falling 
In current game BM can do Heroic raid and M+ fine.
Would love to see hunter get some kind of utility, not because it would guarantee a raid spot but because I enjoy doing mechanics because I have the utility to handle said mechanic.
Peeved that they effectively neutered Binding Shot, love that talent in high M+ keys.
Are you new to hunter? Or did you somehow miss years of every mechanic requiring movement being a âhunterâ mechanic?
Huh who got your panties in a bunch.
We understand you have a viewpoint and are fine with it being so.
Our society seems to have forgotten that it is perfectly fine for varied opinions. It leads to open discord about issues, it is why our founders put in the 1st amendment. However anymore, way too many folks are way to eager to belittle opinions they donât share, via insulting the other side thus shutting down any reasonable discussion.
So I forgive you.
Try reading slower and maybe youâll get it? I donât know how to point out in any simpler terms that hunters had the market for years on any mechanic requiring movement.
This has only been particularly true for BM. Which is only 1 of 3 specs. Other casters in DF can get near enough to MMâs contiguous movement time to deal with many a mechanic without downtime.
BM/MMâs uncapped/higher contiguous mobility âwhich really just means higher damage for those particular specsâ isnât likely to be enough value in most fights to rival the likes of an extra Blessing of Spellwarding, consistent soak capability, etc., especially if itâs already accounted for in their damage during such fights. Theyâll either be taken simply on the weight of that higher damage, or they wonât.
That their damage is less situationally affected than other casters simply pushes them up a few to several ranks in damage. If, despite that, theyâre still not a spec worth stacking (up to the point of being able to handle all such mechanics) for their damage, they still arenât offering anything in place of their utility costs.
You went out of your way to try and avoid the simple facts I pointed out in some convoluted attempt to sit on the fence about if hunters would be taken or not. So letâ go this routeâŠ
World first raiding is the pinnacle of raiding, where only the best of the best comps, classes and specs will see play. Plenty of classes and/or specs are routinely left out. Can we agree?
Assuming you agree (although it would be entertaining if you didnât and tried to argue the point), then hunters were represented in this race. The pinnacle of raiding included hunters⊠hardly an argument to support hunters not being able to get into raids. This isnât even getting into the fact that any class and spec has zero issues completing AOTC and raiding at a heroic level.
Now letâs move onto mythic plus. I will specifically leave SV out of the discussion, since itâs the âmetaâ spec. With current keys, people pushing 25 and higher (especially 27 and higher) keys are playing at the pinnacle of mythic plus. Can we agree?
Again, assuming you agree, Iâve already shown you BM (which is considered the âworstâ of the performing hunter specs in group content by the community, is completing keys up to and including 30.
Pugging is an entirely different discussion, and it most certainly isnât a hunter only issue. There are several classes and/or specs that have difficulty pugging due to community perception. For example, feral damage has actually been above average for keys throughout most of SL, but it still has trouble pugging due to stigma. If you choose to pug, you choose to deal with these stigmas.
First of all, I do not agree with your definition of âpinnacle of M+.â This season especially, 25 keys are exceptionally accessible. I would consider 28 and above âthe pinnacle of M+,â as much as I dislike that term. Iâll compromise and use +27s as an example.
I just checked raider io. There is ONE BM hunter with all 27s and above. There are only 25 or so with all +25s. His +30 is also a Junkyard, and with all due respect, a 30 Junkyard is like a 25-26 everything else.
Iâm still scrolling on outlaw rogue to see what that threshold is.
Anyway, using 1 BM hunter (and props to him) to defend hunter value to M+ isnât the best argument. Itâs weird anyway since most hunters just go Surv/MM in higher M+, so itâs difficult to gauge how these numbers would look if BM didnât have a juiced sister spec.
Because Survival does a lot of damage.
All other classes/specs have at least one reason beyond just damage to be taken. Hunter does not.
Itâs as simple as that.
Even the worst doing X doesnât mean that the worst isnât disadvantaged. Consider, for instance, what an equally geared and skilled meta spec would be letting their party do.
Pugging is a very average player experience. It is the reality for a huge portion of the playerbase. Exempting it from a discussion of âHow likely is X to be taken?â is disingenuous at best.
Which is a decent reason to briefly, briefly let it be overtunedânot enough to sacrifice alternate class utility for, but enough to give it some unique affordance through damage (profile)âenough for a moment, if only to shake up that stigma and level it out.
Better yet, though, one deals with the actual issue: that it does not yet have any unique affordance. Provide one, and the stigma (literally just from not having one) would reverse and, in time, disappear.
Yet those stigmas were formed by exactly the problems being discussed here. Feral provided fewer unique affordances, and at less reliability, than did its competitors; that state has been left for far longer than it should have been. Thatâs exactly how we end up with these issues. Why would you be okay with that for yet another class as a whole, let alone another spec.
Moreover, why pretend PuGing is an active choice? For likely a majority of those who PuG, it is merely the constraint of playing the game while working in the industry they work or while having to keep to the (lack of) schedule they live under.
The reality is that community perception matters, not only for guilds but for pugs. The video is from the point of view of Dragonflight, where almost every class is bringing some sort of buff or raid cd besides hunters and dk.
Lets say all 3 hunters spec are in the middle of the pack in terms of dps, why should a guild leader or pug invite a hunter over the other dps?
Thatâs some idiocy just to end up basically saying the same thing I didâŠ
Of course most people will just play SV. Your complaint was that BM (and assume MM) canât play at those levels. Youâre blatantly wrong.
Except the other specs were played⊠try again maybe.
Nice straw man⊠the whine was that hunter couldnât do it and therefore couldnât play⊠this is a fallacy. Meta versus non-meta is a completely different discussion, and bring it up is disingenuous at best.
Well, except the overwhelming majority of the playerbase doesnât pug at a level where class and spec matter. Maybe quit trying to move the goalpost so much and this drivel will make some sense.
This is just stupid⊠feral doesnât need to be overtuned. It already does middle of the pack and higher damage when played properly.
Because it is? This is a pretty dumb argument considering you can find a guild that raids at most times.
You just noted that PuG has an outsized selection bias. That was also your literal first post.
Perhaps none of this should matter in Heroic. By all means, right-click off every raid buff accidentally given to you; you donât need them.
But whether it should/need/ought be considered or not, it absolutely does have an impact on being taken, and offering nothing where others offer at least something is exactly how you end up with selection-affecting stigmas against a particular class or spec. Theyâre not insanity; though often excessive, they are simply common sense. All else being equal, youâll take the MM over the chance of something else only if applications have trickled down to nothing / people will leave if you donât grab enough soon.
No. The thread is about getting taken/picked/brought. Your first response was to the thread in general. I would think, therefore, it would refer to the OP/thread, no?
Your second response was to a quote specifically about being taken in PuGs. Again, not about whether they âcan do itâ or not (which would be literally a matter of âHunter would single-handedly prevent the raid from clearing when having taken another class in its place would have allowed for successâ).
I havenât said that it needs to be. I said only that it would be fine to briefly let it be overtuned (something Blizzard has somehow been far more careful to thwart than for Balance, despite the otherâs offering other affordances besides raw damage), if only to shake up that stigma, because even brief swings âmore so than unnoticed minute tweaksâ in tuning do affect community perception, and Feral has been negatively affected by its reasons for lower performance being a whole lot more eye-catching than its reasons for returned performance.
But you seem to have also skipped over the main point there:
A spec bringing only middle-of-the-pack damage, with no uniquely helpful damage profile, while bringing only absolute-bottom-of-the-pack utility is exactly what gets you bottom-of-the-pack total value and a spec or class thereby stigmatized against.
Ahh, yes, from among the robust population of UTC-10 grave shift workers.
Those who have to PuG may be a minority, but itâs not as if they are actively choosing to face outsized selection filters and a generally worse experience for the fun(?) of it.
When noting that, all else being equal, some classes offer more reason to be taken than others due to their utility⊠âWe canât talk about PuGing; thatâs a completely different discussion,â despite this affecting PuGing only because PuG raiding is less constrained than static raiding.
When noting that a given spec is disadvantaged because it falls short in total value (affordances of damage AND utility)⊠âWe canât talk about the meta; thatâs a completely different discussionâ despite that the total value something brings is exactly what makes something meta.
Itâs not as if thereâs some traditional, royalistic difference between âmetaâ and ânon-metaâ; whatâs âmetaâ is meta only because it supplies a higher ratio of reward to effort, either doing more with the same effort or managing the same with less team effort. It might as well literally just be called âtypically most valuable.â
Shocking no one (else), when the value, be that by affordances from damage or utility, of a class or spec is increased enough to be competitive with âmetaâ specs even in the context of other meta specs, or enough to raise its synergetic specs in turn, it shakes up the âmetaâ.
The resultant âS-tierâ or whatever BS from that shift will be irrelevant, but the fact that there would then be one fewer class/spec that offers nothing unique without being overtuned will be objectively better for the game. No class should be outright relegated to âIf we canât find anything else and already have all utility features weâd have use for, and/or if overtuned.â
Okokok.
Iâd actually place that at 30 and above (itâs moreso dependent on the key itself) but I added some wiggle room. Apologies for my idiocy 
Anyone can play at any level theoretically.
Also when did I make that complaint? Survival is meta. It gets brought the most (especially in organized groups) because it does a lot of damage.
The subject of the thread is why would you would bring a hunter. People bring them for damage. Halondrus is the only example of hunter âutilityâ (if you can consider BM being able to move while doing its rotation utility) being desirable I can think of in the recent race.
If hunters do bad damage, they get benched. If they do good damage, they get brought, unless we have crab bosses.
Why are half of these comments about the current season. Go away gooses. 
To the others, yes Id like a reason to take a hunter over another class. If I was trying to make 15+ keys or heroic/mythic raids I too would take any class over a hunter if it came to picking one. Iâd rather not spend hours trying to PuG into a group too.
I sometimes like to stack hunters in my keys because 1. Very biased and 2. -
Thereâs a gamble Iâd get 3 survival hunters. Awesome! Infinite damage. Thereâs another gamble that I get a BM and an MM hunter. Even better. Grabs popcorn and waits to see who wins 
Join the Trueshot discord & bring this topic up.
Donât forget to mention that you are a heroic raider & only do +15âs.
just let hunters give everyone a watered down version of their pet spec passive and allow lw to choose an assignment for it, and have command pet give everyone the full powered aura for like 15s or something
itâs by far the easiest and least intrusive way to give hunters a form of raid utility if theyâre aiming for defensive utility, (which by the looks of sentinelâs branches, they are) just tack it on to the improved pet mend and make the weakened pet aura scale per point
The video from Max outlines the perspective of mythic raiding very well. The argument there differs from yours.
Max looks at things from a world first perspective not from a CE raiding perspective. Theyâre two completely different things.
you made me hungry
then the smell of B/O turned me off