Why SV is so hated?

And if you would like me to amend even further, Even though I’ve mained a hunter since they took out the deadzone, I mostly raided as a healer through WoD because survival was so bad and BM wouldn’t get you into to many groups at that time.

At that point it was either MM or switch classes, which I begrudgingly did.

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I think what a lot of people mean when they say that is:

BM is very mobile but damage is mostly done by your pet
MM is not mobile but damage is done by you
SV was mobile and damage wasn’t done by pet

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Exactly!!! That is exactly what I was trying to get across.

It’s quite interesting to see the impact such changes had at those times.

The DK class as a whole held many of the same(potential) issues with it as Feral Druids did before they split Feral into two separate specs.
One big difference is that they allowed for DK specs to be focused at single combat roles with their inception(in Cata).

With Druids, they did not “fix” those problems until 1 expansion later(MoP), after we’ve already had actual Core Specializations in the game for 1 entire expansion.


The point here is, no matter how such changes are taken in/perceived by us, it only further shows that the idea of designing one single spec to contain multiple defining playstyles within it, is a bad thing.

Yep.

So, if they were to suddenly make changes to for example Mages so that they would from now on only attack by using a wand and no other abilities or spells.
And due to this, would loose pretty much every single player/point of representation at max level.

Would you still argue “coincidence” ?

Yep.

So basically you’re saying that all points of feedback towards the game should be discarded as…it’s only people on a forum, right?

This current discussion isn’t off-topic. Check again…

Also, no, it’s not always the same people. Every other day someone new pops up on this sub-forum(as an example) and post about how they want the old RSV back. Whether they do so in the form of a new topic or as a reply to an existing topic, doesn’t really matter here.

So, you’re saying that something like below(link) is just another version of the current MM spec we have on live atm? With nothing unique in terms of mechanics, theme/fantasy, or visuals?

Not what he is doing.

Nor is it true that it was only one ability.

And thirdly, you keep ignoring the potential RSV held if developed with the same basis of Spec Identity, as what they did to all other specs, going into Legion.

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Shadowpriest is still a ranged Shadow damage dealer focusing on applying several DoTs and using channeled abilities to fill the gaps between refreshes. They gained the Voidform mechanic in addition to their other abilities.

Combat is still a swords-based dual wield melee dps focusing primarily on combos and AoE, with less reliance on stealth mechanics, finishers, and poisons compared with other Rogue specs.

Enhancement is still a spec based around enhancing their melee attacks with elemental magic, using a combination of weapon and spell damage, and a plethora of self-buffs.

Demonology is still a spec based around enhanced control of demons and using them to destroy your enemies, rather than attacking them directly like Destruction or using DoTs like Affliction. I’ll grant you that changing them to more of a summoner (rather than communing with a single powerful demon) was a major change.

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Who said anything about being special lmao? I literally said I was a part of a group that many others are apart of. Literal opposite of a “special snowflake”. You’re just saying anything now.

Of course people are going to criticize/show dislike for a massive change in a game they play for enjoyment. Take away an aspect of something people like and of course people are going to be vocal about it.

You saying that it is inherently wrong for people to do that makes you absolutely delusional. Please go back to the Monk forums lol

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This is the primary, if not the only problem with it. Damage/utility is underwhelming compared to the ranged counterparts. Same deal as with Ferals.

Why Blizzard keep these specs in that state is a mystery.

People asking for old Surv back. Simply ask for Blizzard to add Black Arrow/Explosive shot and TNT back as MM talents. In term of gameplay that was about the extent of the difference between the two specs.

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No, stop trying to water down my spec.

This is completely and totally untrue.

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It is true.

You mean give it back its vanilla talents/skills like mongoose bite, raptor strike, and lacerate back? Awesome! Not to mention… don’t you think that Blizzard originally tried that? Tried to make the watered down black sheep spec of Hunter work and have a unique identity and then come to the realization that? “Hm, this just sucks. Lets actually make it unqiue!”

Right, and it is just as true as saying that Frost and Fire are essentially the same; just replace Frostbolt with Fireball and Ice Lance with Scorch and bam suddenly Frost is actually Fire. They’re both casting spells after all. So that means they are the same thing, get it?

You can make anything ‘unique’. Doesn’t mean it is engaging or desirable.

Sorry, but from how I remember it Survival changed the least among the three Hunter specs from Wrath through WoD. Yet people still played it and enjoyed it because it had a defined playstyle that stood the test of time. Why do you think people are so upset that Blizzard deleted it out of nowhere for no reason?

Where on earth are you getting the idea that they tried to reinvent Survival so many times? All they had to do was improve upon it.

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Please enlighthen me. Note that Cata and MoP (the “hey-days” of old Surv) were my most active expansions and i played both specs extensively wherever it was needed (usually MM in PvP, Surv in PvE). Flip-flopping between them was literally just a matter of circumstances.

You had other minor things like reduced trap cooldowns and the ability to spread Serpent Sting with Multi-Shot but none of that was gameplay defining. Surv was a dot-focused MM Hunter.

Considering how many dead talents and failed experiments have plagued MM for the past 2 expansions, bringing that back for them would be better than axing a whole spec entirely.

They already axed a whole spec entirely. Putting SV abilities in MM’s tree would just be axing MM too.

Also, why does MM need Survival talents if they apparently were nearly identical in how they played? They might seem similar on paper, but you can boil most specs down to being very similar on paper. You could do the same with pretty much every class that has two of the same role. “Oh you just use combo point generators and then combo point spenders over and over. All your specs are the same.”

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This is not your spec. You own nothing. And even if you did, your profile shouldn’t be set to MM.

Because MM is lacking gameplay defining talents?

They weren’t identical but they were close enough to be 2 sides of the same coin.

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Isn’t that why combat also got entirely redesigned along Surv?

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That’s what specs are supposed to be: similar. Just like Rogue specs are similar. Just like Warlock and Mage secs are similar. Sharing similar abilities and traits isn’t a sign that they aren’t different enough.

I just don’t understand how somebody could see the existence of a single ranged weapon spec as being too hard to define. It is not difficult to design ranged weapon using specs; Blizzard just dropped the ball repeatedly. That just means they should have listened to the Hunter’s community’s feedback rather than pushing forward their cruddy ‘vision’.

Combat got renamed Outlaw, and got some new abilities. The amount of changes Combat went through are nowhere near the amount of changes Survival went through. Combat/Outlaw still has its core kit, and its defining abilities like Adrenaline Rush, Blade Flurry, Main Gauche and Killing Spree. It also retained the core aspect of the Rogue class: stealth. You know what Survival didn’t retain? The core aspect of the Hunter class: the ranged weapon.

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To the point you can hardly tell them appart unless you look at logs/recount?

And Survival retained most of the Hunter’s melee abilities of old.

And yes it drops one of the “core” aspect of the class to reinforce 2 of the others, Traps and the bond with your pet.

Just like they decided that MM drops the Pet aspect of the class almost entirely and both MM/BM use traps in more limited capacity (originally they had removed traps from MM entirely too).

Just because you didn’t like or didn’t play SV/MM doesn’t mean that they were identical. Why do you think there are so many people upset that it was removed? Because it wasn’t identical to MM. It had its own feel and its own gameplay that many people really liked. To a lot of people it was the best feeling spec of the three, not being so tied to a pet and not being so tied to cast times, plus the instant LnL three explosive shots in a row felt fantastic.

But ya you merely saying that they were the same; that’s totally a credible position.

Ya, wing clip. The rest were all changed. Raptor Strike was changed from altering the next melee attack with a cooldown to being a spammable melee focus dump a la Arcane Shot. Mongoose Bite was completely changed from being an attack that could only be used after a block, dodge or parry to being this multi-charge stacking buff attack. These abilities are nothing like the Hunter melee attacks of old. They are the same in name only.

And guess what? Players said “That’s stupid” and they were right, and Lone Wolf was made optional and traps were brought back to the other two specs. Why should Fire lose Blink? Why should Subtlety lose poisons? Why should Shadow lose Power Word: Shield? Why should Restoration lose Cat Form? Why should Destruction lose Corruption? Why should BM and MM lose traps? Why should MM lose pets? Why should SV lose ranged weapons?

Spec stands for specialization. It means it an area of focus, not that the other areas must be abandoned. It shouldn’t drop a core aspect of the class to focus on some of the other aspects of the class. Survival never had to do that before, so why does it suddenly have to do that now?

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So what’s an affliction lock then? A dot focused destro lock?

Now correct me if I’m wrong here but… pretty sure the playstyle of RSV was basically done around waiting for lnl procs for the most part and MM was I’m going to fire off these abilities and if something procs then I’ll worry about it.

Fairly different philosophy when it comes to each playstyle.

Now if you want to make the argument that “they had similar abilities” then sure. Every class had similar abilities because class came before spec until Legion. Just because two specs shared abilities didn’t make their playstyles the same as their talents interacted with their abilities in different ways and focused on different things.

You making a point here?

Not even sure what you’re trying to say here.

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