Why SV is so hated?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

To be fair, Druid is a hybrid with 4 roles, while Hunter is a pure DPS.

Not quite the same.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

It’s not secret adding a 4th spec to the hunter would create issue in the community, not with hunters itself but with other classes.

Giving anything to hunters causes issue in every other class because all other classes hate hunters because… well I don’t know. I’m sure everyone has their reasons, but seems to be a universal thing.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Everyone have amazing ideas for a 4th spec for their class.

Good for them, the difference with them is that their class didn’t have one of their specs replaced with a spec that is contrary to what the class has always been. Hunters have always been a ranged class. Now you may try to argue that survival in vanilla and BC focused on melee, but at the end of the day they were still hunters and hunters were ranged. Even with talents, hunters could not stand toe to toe with melee or even do as much dps doing melee as other melee dps.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Then you have Demon Hunter, still stuck with two specs… no second dps spec to fall back to if theirs get nerfed hard.

Then they should advocate for a 3rd spec. I’m not against that. Not sure what a 3rd dps spec for them would be, but I’m not against it.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

To add a 4th spec, you’ll need something all around to be added. Certainly ain’t going to happen with Shadowlands.

No you wouldn’t. Nothing says if Blizzard gives hunters back RSV as a 4th spec that they have to add anything to any other class. Not going to lie, a time mage would make a pretty cool 4th spec for mages.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

but the cost of it vs what it’d bring them is too much.

How do you know? Do you work for Blizzard? Are you their accountant? Do you have any way to back up this statement beyond this is what you think?

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Why work on something that would only please a small portion of the game community?

Ion admitted that melee survival would be a niche thing. So, Blizz knew it would only please a small group of people before they even did it. Makes this kind of a moot thing to say.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Would it make them spend more money? Stay subbed? A little perhaps, but hardly any noticeable change since most of the hunters asking for it are already subbed, already a hunter.

How many hunters were asking for melee survival back in WoD an earlier? Not many.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

They will check old logs (if still available),

They found the data they needed to make Classic, and their data storage practices have gotten better since then. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if they didn’t have all the data from WoD including RSV.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

This is a lot of resource to spend on a single spec.

And? Why do you seem to think the limit of Blizzard’s resources is 36 specs and 37 specs would be tipping the balance too far? This implies that Blizzard is at a point where they could never add a new class. If they did, would still use this argument with the implication that 39 specs is the limit and 40 is too many?

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

you will have players hating it.

Do you have a crystal ball? Can you see the future? Just asking because the opposite can just as easily be true.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Spec isn’t what I wanted it to be like! This isn’t wod SV! I wanted more MoP SV! Why did you change that skill to make it a cast!? Etc.

Aren’t you fond of saying you can’t please everyone? Sure some people would hate it, even if most people are at least agreeable to it.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Now Hunter doesnt have that same thing. They had a spec change / evolve with new mechanics and people want an “older” version of it. This is clearly a different story.

Except here is why this argument doesn’t work.

Druids had tank and melee dps in 1 spec, so you are right they needed to split it and deleting 1 playstyle was out of the question.

Now you have Survival, in it’s attempt to please old survival players, has become this weird hybrid ranged thing. If they added RSV back as a 4th spec, they would please the old survival players and be able to focus the melee survival on melee and actually be able to make it a decent melee spec.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Legion class change was a planned thing, resource and effort was reserved for an overall change around all classes.

And they can’t plan to add RSV back as a 4th spec for some reason?

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

So again, in SL you won’t see anything.

Okay… people are asking for it back. No one is saying “It has to be back by SL or else.”

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Adreaver-undermine

To be fair, Druid is a hybrid with 4 roles, while Hunter is a pure DPS.

Not quite the same.

I don’t see a difference. Why should hybrids be given favoritism in keeping their specs while pures are allowed to just have their specs deleted?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

Because they have fundamentally different roles and allowing a Feral druid to be a fully functional tank and dps at the same time by simply shifting forms would be grossly imbalanced compared with the tools available to other tank/DPS characters?

Also ease up on the vitriol, I want to see RSV come back as much as anybody else.

Pointing out the difference between an apple and an orange isn’t demanding the destruction of all citrus fruits.

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

@Ogdenir-alleria

How do you know this? Can you for see in the future?

DH 3rd spec? Shaman asking for the tank spec? Adding a spec based on an old version of current spec… you’d see some warlocks, priest, rogues, etc demanding to have another spec with their old style / mechanics in it. Do I really need to elaborate more on this?

---

@Ogdenir-alleria

So you must work for Blizzard or another game company then? You seem to give so much insight of their inner working that you must work for one and know how a Game Company functions?

Ubi was a cool place, the devs and everyone working behind the game is really into it… more than some people give credit / believe. We’re just limited. Sometimes we have to do the change or w.e even we think it’s not a great feature or healthy for the game.

---

@Ogdenir-alleria

Then if it just time they need then after Shadowlands they could bring back RSV as a fourth spec or as a alternative to MSV as year or more would be enough. But what about money? Well if they were willing to spend money on a change that was known would cause drama with some players then they could be will to spend some more to make those upset player happy again, and maybe bring back some players which would increase earnings?

If that time comes, its because they would be doing changes all around and certainly have more budget into it. Would it be used to bring some old spec back though? I dont think so. They would probably create a new variation or add new stuff to existing class. We’ll know after SL, Im sure changes are coming there… new class probably and some class changes.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

I don’t see how my comment contained any vitriol. I gave my opinion, and asked a question.

I understand why Feral and Guardian were split. But if Druids were treated similarly to Hunters, one of those specs would have just been deleted instead of being added as a fourth spec. I just want Hunters to have their spec back that was deleted, just like how Druids got to keep all of their specs rather than having one deleted.

The situations are identical. One class, four specs. Druids have Resto, Balance, Feral and Guardian. Hunters have BM, MM, ranged SV and melee SV. I don’t see why one class should be allowed to have all four of theirs, but another not.

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

@Adreaver-undermine

Because they have fundamentally different roles and allowing a Feral druid to be a fully functional tank and dps at the same time by simply shifting forms would be grossly imbalanced compared with the tools available to other tank/DPS characters?

Theres that, but its also due to the timing on talent systems too.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

But Druid had it, so why not Hunter too?!

Druid is a separate case. Back then the talent system was still a points thing, not the 3 choices per row talent system.

Old Talent chart for druid. You will see that both “Guardian” and “Feral” were build in the saw column.
https://rpgworld.altervista.org/talentcata/eng/?DU#.63-!-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1

So when the new system came with MOP , having two spec using the same talents wouldn’t fit. Each talent would need to have two version build in it… one for bear form and one for cat form. So they created the 4th spec so that guardian and feral would have different talent choices.

Also, no secret that both dps and tanking forms of the druid we’re used/played since Vanilla.

Now Hunter doesnt have that same thing. They had a spec change / evolve with new mechanics and people want an “older” version of it. This is clearly a different story.

Your angry replier didn’t bother to check it out.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

They aren’t identical. Druids always had the ability to do all 4 roles. Deleting Feral for Guardian would have meant deleting a role entirely from the class, and likely deleting Cat Form. Deleting RSV removed one of 3 RDPS options from Hunter, it didn’t remove RDPS entirely.

They are not comparable situations. I’ve talked to you about the comparable situations before, and you choose to ignore whatever information doesn’t fit the narrative.

Again, I never said that RSV shouldn’t come back. I said it’s not likely for a pure DPS, and that Druids aren’t really comparable due to their ability to play multiple roles.

@Azagorod-emerald-dream

Theres that, but its also due to the timing on talent systems too.

Yeah I read that. It’s irrelevant. The talents could have had longer tooltips (like they did in every expansion prior to MoP) and just included one Cat effect and one Bear effect.

[Miggz-daggerspine]

@Spinnerdh-the-underbog

The situations are identical. One class, four specs. Druids have Resto, Balance, Feral and Guardian. Hunters have BM, MM, ranged SV and melee SV. I don’t see why one class should be allowed to have all four of theirs, but another not.

The situations are not identical, as Adreaver states here.

@Adreaver-undermine

Because they have fundamentally different roles and allowing a Feral druid to be a fully functional tank and dps at the same time by simply shifting forms would be grossly imbalanced compared with the tools available to other tank/DPS characters?

Also ease up on the vitriol, I want to see RSV come back as much as anybody else.

Pointing out the difference between an apple and an orange isn’t demanding the destruction of all citrus fruits.

You can remain angry Blizzard made the decision to change “your” spec all day, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are two fundamentally different roles and that’s why blizzard split them. I agree with Adreaver that it would have been way to hard for Blizzard to balance a DPS and Tank role in the same spec. Especially with how the shift to talents changed to the current version.

At this point I really hope they bring RSV back, for you, and Bepples, and it’s soo badly design that we end up getting another 10 years of posts from you two about how bad the design is and how you want the original RSV to return.

@Bepples-barthilas

This is my way of dealing with it and I will continue.

We know, you’re a broken record already.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Miggz-daggerspine

At this point I really hope they bring RSV back, for you, and Bepples, and it’s soo badly design that we end up getting another 10 years of posts from you two about how bad the design is and how you want the original RSV to return.

This kind of petty garbage? There’s no need for it.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Adreaver-undermine

They aren’t identical. Druids always had the ability to do all 4 roles. Deleting Feral for Guardian would have meant deleting a role entirely from the class, and likely deleting Cat Form. Deleting RSV removed one of 3 RDPS options from Hunter, it didn’t remove RDPS entirely.

They are not comparable situations. I’ve talked to you about the comparable situations before, and you choose to ignore whatever information doesn’t fit the narrative.

Again, I never said that RSV shouldn’t come back. I said it’s not likely for a pure DPS, and that Druids aren’t really comparable due to their ability to play multiple roles.

I’m not convinced that the mere difference in roles matters here. If that was the design intentions from Blizzard in vanilla then pures wouldn’t exist. Each pure spec has just as much the right to exist as any one Druid spec, or any spec of a hybrid. The idea that Druids ought to be allowed to keep their spec while Hunters lose their spec, just because Druids spec’s occupy different roles, is essentially hybrid favoritism.

In terms of fantasy, no spec should be more important than the next.

@Miggz-daggerspine

but it doesn’t change the fact that they are two fundamentally different roles and that’s why blizzard split them.

The point in contention is not why they were split. They could have split Feral up and then just deleted Guardian instead of making it its own spec, or they could have removed the DPS aspect from Feral while making it exclusively a tank spec like Guardian.

The point of contention is the deletion itself.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

FFS just stop it.

It isn’t about that.

If you take a tank, and give that tank all the appropriate tools to be a tank (which you have to, or they can’t tank), and then you ALSO give that same tank all the appropriate tools to be a full strength DPS, swapping in combat, with just a basic ability, you have an overpowered monster of a tank that no other tank can compete with.

It’s not about RSV. It’s about not designing Guardian to be either objectively better than all other tanks (by doing the same performance as a Rogue while they aren’t holding aggro) or objectively worse than all other tanks (because you nerfed their tankiness into the ground to compensate for their damage).

You want to argue they shouldn’t have deleted RSV, argue that, I’ll stand on the hill next to you. You want to argue a 4th spec is a good way to bring it back, I’ll support that. I’ll also tell you it’s not likely.

When you start arguing utter nonsense about other classes and their changes and why it’s somehow exactly the same in some cases and completely different in others, but RSV is ALWAYS the most hard-done-by, you lose me.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Adreaver-undermine

If you take a tank, and give that tank all the appropriate tools to be a tank (which you have to, or they can’t tank), and then you ALSO give that same tank all the appropriate tools to be a full strength DPS, swapping in combat, with just a basic ability, you have an overpowered monster of a tank that no other tank can compete with.

Again, that is irrelevant. They could have just removed the DPS elements from Feral without giving them a fourth spec. I am not proposing that Feral never should have been split.

I am saying that if they treated Druids in the same way that they treated Hunters, they would have just removed either the DPS or tanking elements from Feral instead of splitting them into two separate specs.

If Feral was changed to just be tanking, or to just being DPSing, without the other aspect of Feral being made into a fourth spec, then it would be in the same situation Hunter is in. Both classes would have three specs despite their existing four specs for those classes. Druids would have Resto, Balance and tank Feral, missing DPS Feral, while Hunters would have BM, MM and melee SV, missing ranged SV.

But instead, Druids got a fourth spec to accommodate tanking Feral and they called it Guardian. That way Druids didn’t have to get one of their specs deleted. They were given a fourth spec instead of deleting one of Feral’s playstyles. That’s good. That’s what Blizzard should have done. The situations are identical because both classes, Druid and Hunter, have had a total of four specs in WoW’s history, except Druids get to keep all four of theirs while Hunter doesn’t get to.

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

@Spinnerdh-the-underbog

If Feral was changed to just be tanking, or to just being DPSing, without the other aspect of Feral being made into a fourth spec, then it would be in the same situation Hunter is in

No.

It would be worse.

Complete removal of a role beats removal of one of 3 specs filling that role.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Adreaver-undermine

No.

It would be worse.

Complete removal of a role beats removal of one of 3 specs filling that role.

I don’t see how. Why can’t a person have just as strong a fantasy attachment for ranged Survival, or Arcane, or Subtlety, or Destruction as a person may have a strong fantasy attachment for Resto, or Blood, or Guardian, or Protection?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

I’m not talking about fantasy FFS, I’m talking about game design and mechanics.

[Dawnspirit-wyrmrest-accord]

@Adreaver-undermine

Complete removal of a role beats removal of one of 3 specs filling that role.

Does it though? We currently have 6 tank specs including Guardian Druid. If you removed druid there would still be 5 tanks.

5 tank specs is till more physical ranged dps spec then the game ever had.

[Retail-emerald-dream]

Could you possibly brown nose any harder dude?

[Adreaver-undermine (Adreaver)]

If you take a character who has been a tank on their druid from 2004 through 2012, and all of a sudden, they log in to prepatch and can’t tank anymore? Yeah, that’s objectively worse.

RSV to MSV meant you didn’t have the same Hunter centric highly mobile DoT focused RDPS playstyle with a semi-relevant pet. You instead had the choice of pet centric highly mobile DD focused RDPS, Hunter centric no pet much less mobile DD focused RDPS, or Hunter centric highly mobile DoT focused MDPS with a semi-relevant pet.

Your character could still perform the same basic function in a group. Not in the same playstyle, but in the same role. If you had a dungeon group in Cata and nobody rerolled for Mists, using the “just delete Guardian” theory, if your tank was the Druid, you no longer have a group. With RSV to MSV, the Hunter respecced and the group carried on.

[Spinnerdh-the-underbog]

@Adreaver-undermine

I’m not talking about fantasy FFS, I’m talking about game design and mechanics.

Fantasy takes precedent over game design and mechanics, though of course they are both important. Most people play class first, role second. You don’t say “I main tank” or “I main ranged DPS” you say “I main Druid” or “I main Hunter”, or even “I main Guardian Druid” or “I main Survival (read: Ranged Survival) Hunter”. Most people just play the role their favorite spec/class happens to be or is best at.

Arguing that it is more ok to delete pure specs over hybrid specs is, again, essentially hybrid favoritism. No spec should be deleted, period. They should all be equally as important.