You need to seriously re-evaluate your world views if you think asking for evidence is a bad thing.
Saying that more people play melee is a controversial claim. I want to see proof of it. If you can’t present proof of it, you need to stop saying it.
You guys argued that ranged are in demand because melee is oversaturated as everyone is playing it. The parse counts I linked show that’s not the case; there are more ranged participating in raids than melee yet ranged is still in demand after you take that into account.
Only raiding, m+, and rated PvP can be accurately tracked.
Survival is always far, far behind in raids and M+ (hilarious how you mention M+ like it’s a counter-example). This expansion it has only done well in rated PvP which is a very small part of the game.
Just because we don’t know what the makeup is in casual content doesn’t mean you can safely assume SV is wildly popular there. That’s absurd. For this I have to move into the realm of the anecdotal, but I must say SV is not exactly a common sight out in the world or in battlegrounds. In epic BGs it’s practically a no-show.
This, exactly. Azagorod apparently thinks that you are allowed to fill in the blanks with assumptions.
The degree of damage the change would do should make you not like it.
And yet you have no problem reconciling with them removing a bow/gun spec from the game.
Hmm, nope, that was from your post. I just mistakenly left the opening quote tag from Ghorak’s post (to which you were replying) for that particular paragraph because I made a mistake when removing the nested quotes. You said those words.
“No u”? Really?
I said that every Hunter spec used a ranged weapon and that no Hunter spec was ever intended to stick to melee before Legion. You all came in here saying that’s wrong while not actually disputing it, thus stalling.
Then why did you say those of us who think Hunters didn’t stick to melee regardless of spec must not have played Classic? Listen to yourself.
They made a Hunter class, allowed all 3 specs to have access to ranged weapons, made Agility our primary stat that gave 2 ranged attack power per 1 melee attack power, gave us set bonuses and other class items that relied on ranged, as well as the various class quests that require us to use our ranged toolkits and supporting material that depicted and explicitly described Hunters as ranged. A Hunter spec without a ranged weapon was simply not something that fit the class. What we have today is a Hunter class without a ranged weapon. No, a single ability having an animation that happens to include a random crossbow doesn’t count.
You weren’t intended to put all your points in one tree so this doesn’t mean anything. Like Ghorak said, Vanilla WoW did not have specialisations in the same sense as Cataclysm onwards. In fact, there was virtually no serious build that didn’t take Mortal Shots and Aimed Shot. Each spec buffed part of the class; most of the foundation of the identity and playstyle lay in the base class and for Hunters that was a class that used a ranged weapon.
Besides, as had been said it took less than a year for Survival to get its own ranged-buffing talents. The Survival of 1.7 onwards, and therefore the one you see on Classic, has its very own ranged ability in Wyvern Sting as well as Lightning Reflexes which was a big buff to ranged damage due to agility while keeping most of the trap/melee goodness of the pre-1.7 iteration.
It still would have been ranged and at least tangentially based on what it was before and that’s what matters.
Look at BM. It released in Legion in a pitiful state, and now it’s actually pretty passable with moderate-sized changes.
Really the galaxy-brain take should have been that the giant class reworks of Legion shouldn’t have happened if they couldn’t pull it off correctly. They spent all that time remaking Hunters only to make them worse; why not just save that effort by doing nothing at all and getting a better class out of it?
It’s not really for you to decide, is it? You have no visible participation in competitive raiding. Any mythic raider can tell you that having a melee-heavy raid is generally a bad thing and BM is an extremely good progression spec. SV literally has no significant, tangible benefit over BM for progression and it only has the significant downside of being melee instead of ranged.
As I already said before I posted this, this point is one of the most absurd things I’ve ever heard on these forums and that really is saying a lot. I’ll post the data in a separate post but you are dead wrong. Raids have more ranged participation by a lot. The demand for ranged is not based on a low supply but rather the fact that being ranged is just more helpful for a raid in 99% of cases.
It really isn’t.
What a misinformed statement. Blizzard literally said they made SV melee to cater to a specific niche and that they knew it wouldn’t be popular.
Were you around for Cata, MoP and WoD? Damn near every Hunter was Survival. Even on the MoP Server I’ve played on it’s not an uncommon sight to see 5 Hunters in an LFR, all of which are Survival. Nowadays it’s a rare sight to see even 1 Survival Hunter.
And yes, I know that’s anecdotal. The actual raid representation statistics show that SV was a popular spec back then, though.
They are all recruiting ranged because ranged is better for raiding. Mind-blowing how you have all latched onto this argument that the ranged demand is somehow a result of everyone playing melee.
That sounds cool, but what’s even better is not having to charge around at all and instead run-and-gunning people down from afar.
I asked for a source/basis to his claim that more people seem to love playing melee.
As by his own argument a while back: the data we have doesn’t include everyone who play. Only the top players/ranked. He made a claim in regards to the entire playerbase. Something we have no reliable data for, nor would any such data show the reason for why someone is specced into a particular spec.
At least ranked data shows that players are actually playing as a particular class/spec in a dedicated type of content.
Which is why we refer to such data rather than making claims based on the entire playerbase.
You should really read what’s being written before you post…
Having said that, if he made that claim on the basis of the amount of players who were playing as melee rather than why they are playing, like Bepples said, he should back that claim up with some accurate data as well.
Again, like Bepples said, this proves nothing.
Sure, is it hinting at there being a shortage of ranged players to fill all spots?
Or more likely, is it that those guilds are asking for some specific classes who happen to be…on the better side…in terms of what strengths they bring to the raid?
But still, it doesn’t actually prove anything other than, at the time(s) when you noticed the chat, there were guilds looking for certain ranged classes/specs.
Other than that, yes, ranged specs are more desired as, most encounters in PvE are designed so it’s generally better to be in there as a ranged class/spec. This resulting in the likelihood that more guilds will search for ranged classes/specs because there are more of those spots to fill, compared to melee.
But again, yours or anyone’s claims that this somehow shows that more players like to play/or even do play melee classes/specs, are factually wrong.
Says the guy who makes claims based on data that does not exist(for us to rely on), but are in fact only conclusions from his own head/bias towards his preferred fighting style.
No, but apart from raids, M+ and rated PvP, we have no indication as to why people are playing something, nor how many.
And in terms of trackable data, SV comes in at 2.5% of all specs, 2.1% of that is rated PvP.
Forget the total numbers and what those are. Look at the spread itself. It shows how they changed a spec which was more represented in all trackable content at it’s time, to now be the definition of a one-trick-pony that is only well represented in 1 type of trackable content: rated PvP.
But yeah sure, the class is now more diverse…even if, as numbers show, that’s not what we wanted. At least not that level of diversity.
I mean I like Surv. It everything I want from a class. Well i love is I had trueshot aura from classic as baseline. But if they switch surv back to range I’ll be find with it. As I like Hunter as a class.
Blah blah Add another bow/gun range spec/class, I agree.
And yet classic and + hunters could melee with Sv tree having points that could increase melee spells and parry points.
I like to say sorry with “learn to read” I felt a little rude with that.
(Melee) Survival Hunter is probably the funnest spec of any class I’ve ever played at any part of the game’s history (note that I haven’t played every spec for every class at every point in the game’s history, but I’ve played quite a few). Numerically speaking, it’s not the best performing spec I’ve ever played, but it is mechanically the funnest.
HOWEVER, it is a wonky rotation… if you could even call it a rotation. It’s complex and brutal, and difficult to sim. Lots of tab targeting involved to maximize its effectiveness. It’s not in line with the typical “I play a hunter so that the game will be easier for me” mentality.
That’s probably why most hunters don’t play survival. It’s a challenge. And most folks choose a hunter over other DPS classes because they don’t want to deal with the challenges many of those other DPS classes present (namely, being melee or having to stand still to cast).
Most hunters/players playing as one, picked it back in the day because of the focus on ranged combat. And yes, it’s fair to say so as, prior to Legion, there was nothing but ranged options for Hunters. The ranged part combined with the distinct theme/fantasy of the class is/was more likely the reason as to why players chose it.
As for specs being challenging today, I guess you could say that it depends on the player and what they find to be difficult to deal with(what type of mechanical designs the specs hold). It would also depend on the type of content, where for example PvP tend to be more about dealing with the opponents and their actions while PvE is more about, as a hunter, striving for optimal execution while dealing with mechanics during encounters and coordinating with the group/raid.
Having said that, none of the current hunter specs are actually that difficult to play.
Except the raids are generally designed around having a more or less equal base of ranged and melee. If you were right, you’re not, then guilds would be recruiting melee as much as ranged. They aren’t, you’re wrong, and continue to be wrong. Shocking…
Did you read what I said on this topic or did you just ignore all of it? Seems like the latter.
Classic SV had a ranged weapon. Current SV does not have a ranged weapon. End of story.
Like I said to the last one who pushed this point: I know it’s difficult to resist an opportunity to call all Hunters stupid, but the fact is most Hunters just don’t want to play a melee spec.
LMAO, no they are not equally desired. Raids have typically been punishing to melee, with few exceptions (e.g. Gul’dan). You are generally limited to a 6-8 split favouring ranged at best (assuming 4 healers which is more than usual), and often even more ranged-leaning.
Note the only Hunter there is BM. In fact, a Hunter has been present in every major world first and they have always been MM and BM. The last time SV was included on a world first was in February 2015 on Blackhand in Blackrock Foundry, of course when the spec was still ranged. Don’t act like this cherrypicking, either; in our own Azshara kill we had 10 ranged and 5 melee. Maybe if you did any mythic raiding at all you would know this stuff.
Christ, man, I shouldn’t be having to do this for you. I was going to post a bunch of extra links here to prove you wrong but I realised in that case you would have been successfuly tricking me into doing a lot of searching while you just sit back and dump garbage claim after garbage claim into the thread so I’m not taking the bait. I think it’s already apparent to everyone here how hopelessly wrong you are. If you disagree, go find evidence that actually supports anything you say. I’ve already given plenty of evidence for my side.
Since simple logic escapes you, if the drivel you posted was true then guilds would siimply run all ranged. This isn’t hard, but yet you still fail. SV is melee, and is staying melee no matter how much you few people whine about it.
Yeah, no. Bringing some melee is preferable because a) particular melee have important utility, b) particular melee actually have high DPS, c) melee tend to be more mobile and therefore allow for DPS uptime when the ranged have to be moving, and d) it is possible to oversaturate ranged, it just takes a lot more than it does to oversaturate melee.
Stop making stupid speculations about areas of content you know nothing about. I’m starting to get embarrassed on your behalf.
SV may stay melee, but as late as a few weeks before Legion was announced people would have called you insane for saying it would not stay ranged. And that version was actually popular. It’s not a safe bet to say SV will be melee forever given how it came to be in the first place, especially when they just remade it this expansion in to something much more leaning towards ranged than it was before.
I would like to point out you ignored everything else in that post just to single out 1 point.
Anyway, the point was there are times when ranged need to move and melee do not. For example, orb soaking on Azshara. For most ranged, movement is punishing. There is a tangible benefit to having some melee in the raid on account of this, along with the other things I mentioned.
Stop trying to act like an authority on raiding when you clearly lack the knowledge and experience.
I think BM harder then Surv. I know, I’m odd. I find warrior, rouge, DH, Feral, and umm Echment shaman harder then SV.
I like playing melee, will play range if I must but nothing beat getting into the think of it. I find most WoW melee classes hard to play. Paladin, DK and SV are few I can play at a decent level. Paladin and DK are sloooow. So I play SV.
Just want to let people here know: If you have something to say to me regarding my forum posts, put it here on the forums where everyone can see it. If you are suspended and can’t do that then you will just have to wait out your suspension. Don’t chuck a tantrum at me in discord messages or in game. Even I’m not that petty.
They changed it a lot, i liked the Legion version way better, especially using that axe throw talent. It was a little overpowered in low level pvp, but very fun.