Under powered, poor defenses in PvP …
We’re still pretty prominent in 2s, even to high ratings, for how uncommon our class itself is in the current state of the game.
If only 5% of players are playing hunters, and only 10% of that 5% are queueing pvp, representation will always be low. That’s more to do with mages, rogues, DKs, DHs, monks, and warlocks being excessively easy to play with low risk high reward right now than it is to do with surv being “weak.”
Survs weakness is purely that we cannot survive for 15 minutes at 60% dampening. When games are shorter (like…this season, currently), we begin to shine again.
[quote]I play the spec everyday, farmed gear for months and it is a brand new round of raid kicks (Shadow Lands) for me until people get geared and they just need filler.
Responses like yours do not address the tiny player base of the class, if fails to look at the placement of the Survival Hunter on the PvP boards.
When you said on Paper it looks great gave me chills, I have not heard that expression in years the only time you hear that expression anymore is after total failure.[/quote]
I also play it every day and have no issue with the spec itself, just the ubiquity of RMPal and other brainless comps.
If I can no voice duelist as surv, it’s not as dire as you want to pretend it is.
There’s nothing underpowered whatsoever about surv’s DAMAGE in pvp, we have pretty otherworldly burst, you are obviously not gearing correctly.
We just inevitably die inside of a stun (which has ALWAYS been hunter’s weakness) when at 60% dampening. If the game ends in under 5 minutes, we’re absolutely clapping on damage.
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Gaslighting while accusing others of gaslighting, that’s brilliant.
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No no, I got that part.
He suggested that much of the old RSV(or all of it?) should be implemented within MM as a specialization, just not by replacing existing MM mechanics and elements but being more along the lines of how certain abilities in the past used to share CDs and so on.
I responded by saying that any attempt at trying to contain 2 different playstyles within one specialization would be a giant mistake, pretty much.
And yes, current MM had a different playstyle when compared to old RSV.
MM being about big hits and burst windows while RSV was about DoT and consistency.
If you actually want to explore what both those styles mean beyond simply implementing a few stand-alone abilities or effects, then it would be a giant mess. OR at the very least, it would require massive changes to be made to the very base functions of MM as a specialization for it to even remotely work.
Ah, that’s more just me, responding to individuals who…are responding to me.
But yeah, it can often result in the following:
Prior poster’s attempt at discrediting my replies as being “walls-of-text” being one of the examples. As, the term “wall-of-text” refers to a very specific method which is one that I have never opted for.
And yes, there are several definitions of what “wall-of-text” means. But none of them actually fits within my posts, and how they are written.
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You’re the text book definition of wall of text. You say the same things over and over, never adding anything new or of value. Your inability to grasp it makes it even better.
p.s. Surv is still melee and will be in Shadowlands.
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lol, looking at leaderboards and asking for stats when theres barely traces of PvP on your own account.
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What sort of absurd argument is this? We’ve had this iteration of Survival for 1.5 years at this point and there are people who have played it thoroughly at high levels of play. Go ask actual top-ranking Survival Hunters. The limitations of the spec are well known. It factually has less survivability tools than other melee.
Cherrypicking videos with a poor matchup of gear and skill level doesn’t change that, especially when I’ve seen BM Hunters wiping out the competition on that same channel.It can be strong in arena situations, but that’s a function of its damage and control tools rather than its survivability and it does depend a lot on composition. Put it this way: all those tools you just listed also belong to BM, yet SV is still preferred in arenas (can’t stress enough how much SV’s PvP prowess depends on the net PvP talent).
That doesn’t mean much when it can instead switch to a properly-ranged spec. It’s mind boggling how SV players continue to try to sell the merits of the spec being melee by pushing just how ranged the spec can be at times. If being ranged is so good, and I agree it is, the spec should just be ranged full-time. This expansion has demonstrated there is little demand in PvE for a melee spec that can pretend to be ranged sometimes.
Yeah, no. It really isn’t as complex as you make it out to be. It was in Legion, but that’s not the case any more. I would rate several iterations of any of the 3 specs from WotLK-WoD as just as complex as the current SV.
I don’t have any regard for this “oops, the spec is melee now but a handful of people like it so we can’t change it back or that would be just as bad!” angle. There is very little reason to keep the spec melee. I don’t even think most of the people who like the spec like it specifically because it’s melee. I mean here you are talking about how the best part of the spec is its ability to be occasionally ranged.
Hunters really don’t do “really good damage”. We can hold up but there are quite a few specs that are far better than our top spec (BM) and the other two are further behind BM. They are likely to only fall further behind as we get more data in this tier, too.
Given that you have never stepped foot in any relevant content in this expansion I’m going to hazard a guess that if you top damage against anyone (and I doubt that) it’s because you’re grouping with subpar players in irrelevant content.
Oh, really? Because in your Survival parses this expansion, which consists of a handful of green and grey parses in heroic Uldir, you are being beaten by a BM Hunter in all but 1 of them.
You can’t tell me it’s unique because it has pets and then tell me there are other melee specs that have pets. I know they are not exactly the same. But you can’t call the spec “extremely unique” when the rough outline of the spec, i.e. a melee spec with a pet and lots of ranged capability, has been done before.
If the pet is the distinguishing factor for SV, we already have a spec that focuses on that in Beast Mastery. And I really don’t think it’s sound logic to say SV is unique v.s. BM because it’s melee and BM is ranged; you’re basically then telling me that SV is BM but worse.
Getting rid of the bombs and poisons would be utterly ridiculous. That’s the only part of SV that really is unique and fitting of the spec’s historical identity. It really does sound like you want to make SV into a purely “melee BM” spec. The class does not need melee BM and ranged BM. The whole point of the SV change in the first place was ostensibly because it was too similar to another Hunter spec when it was ranged. To put it bluntly, the only reasonable future for SV is to remove the melee aspects. They are holding the spec back and most Hunters don’t want them. Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting are in fact the unique aspects that should be used to build a good ranged spec like we used to have.
The way it played, especially in PvP, encapsulated the iconic Hunter playstyle and identity extremely well. It was a fast-paced spec with great control due to Trap Mastery and Entrapment. It also represented the buffed projectiles aspect of the Hunter class with poisons and explosives, which is now very underutilised in the class, and it could have easily been expanded into providing a solid multidotting playstyle which would be unique and challenging in the class.
This has been explained to you before, so stop playing dumb. Playing purely in melee was not a valid playstyle, nor was it ever intended to be. There was an understanding that Hunters could not use ranged abilities within 8 yards and had to use melee, so in PvP where others would exploit that weakness it would be helpful to have better capability to survive and push damage while also better capability to get back to ranged.
Survival started off with a bunch of weak melee-buffing effects spread across multiple different talents. Same with traps. Their first pass of the spec condensed most of the melee goodness into one talent (Savage Strikes) and put it high up in the tree so even BM and MM Hunters could take it for PvP. It also condensed the trap-buffing talents and provided more control options to the spec and even its own unique ranged stuff. The version of SV you see in Classic has Wyvern Sting, a ranged attack, and Lightning Reflexes, a buff to your agility which gives 2 ranged attack power per point (v.s. 1 melee attack power).
The spec was clearly not intended to stay in melee range. The current version clearly is, as you need to be in melee to do your full damage output. You had a real ranged weapon in Classic, you do not now. You actually had some form of trap focus in Classic (which prevailed in all iterations of ranged SV, by the way), you do not now. It is spectacularly ignorant to pretend the current SV is representative of classic SV. In MoP and WoD, even without the melee weapon, those iterations of SV were more representative of the classic playstyle.
What sort of logic is this? If we had in Vanilla what we had now in Vanilla it would be melee because… SV has less ranged capability now?
Blizzard clearly did not intend SV to primarily fight in melee. Not only did they explicitly state that Hunters primarily fought in ranged but the basic design of the class reinforced that. When they did a class review less than a year into the game’s life they gave SV unique ranged-buffing talents. The version on Classic primarily fights in ranged so this does not help your argument; in fact it debunks it.
This is not a meaningful distinction, this is just you being a smart alec. No other class has abilities that use a ranged weapon. The manual even talks about this.
Actually, no, it is factual. When there are only 2 ranged weapon users in the game they are inherently more unique than the 13 melee weapon users.
No, they could not have done that without severely damaging MM only to offer a watered-down version of ranged SV. It’s just not feasible. MM has things that don’t fit ranged SV and vice versa. Furthermore, ranged SV had a trap focus that doesn’t suit MM. This is yet another “compromise” that is really “melee take all”.
Even by your own warped logic the melee spec has not “been there since day 1” because in all the expansions between Classic and Legion it was thoroughly a ranged spec. As we have already established it was not melee in Classic. The Classic version has a ranged weapon, a REAL one that allows you to at least auto-shot, the BFA version does not. You can’t excuse your way around this basic fact.
What exactly are you disputing here? Yes, this is all true. The only difference is I correctly view it as more reason why the spec should not be melee while you make weak excuses.
Solution: remove the most obvious and significant drawback of Survival v.s. the other Hunter specs; the melee.
Survival was not only fine when it was ranged but it excelled. I know Survival has been the circus freak of class design for so long that it’s hard to remember what it was like before, but it was once a spec that was respected and played by many and it had no trouble getting into raids.
That would be pretty wacky. Good thing that’s not what happened.
And no matter what talent you went with you still had a ranged weapon and were intended to use it as much as possible, yet here you are pretending that a spec without a ranged weapon is representative of the Hunter of those times.
You know what was a better way to counter melee? Use Survival’s tools such as Improved Wing Clip and Entrapment to get back to ranged and kite them to death instead of deliberately sticking to the melee range where they have you vastly outmatched.
The whole argument was that Hunters were never intended to have a playstyle based around melee, and that is correct. You did not stick to melee as Survival in Vanilla, period. You keep dancing around this fact and being dishonest about it but that’s fact.
Raptor Strike was the only ability in the melee toolkit that did any sort of damage worth a damn.
Mongoose Bite was situational as you had to dodge, and also nowhere near as good as Raptor Strike.
Wing Clip is literally a tool intended to help you get back to ranged, as are the Improved Wing Clip + Trap talents.
So, yes, you only brought this up to be a smart alec.
Like I said, Warriors and Rogues having ranged weapon statsticks has zero relevance to this discussion. Hunters were the only ones with abilities that use a ranged weapon and the only ones with auto-shot. I’m not going to go into detail spelling this out every single time I say Hunters are the only ones who used ranged weapons because everyone understands how Warriors and Rogues possessed ranged weapons and used them in an extremely limited capacity.
Or, how about this: we stop deflecting blame to the ranged specs and acknowledge that Survival going melee is the issue here and it should be solved within Survival. It is utterly ridiculous to suggest that we need to further compromise on the integrity of the ranged aspect of the class by making ranged SV share MM’s space just to continue to tread on eggshells around melee Survival. Hardly anyone in the class prefers melee Survival and even fewer prefer Survival specifically for its melee aspect.
Why should the melee players continue to be considered to be more important whenever it comes to this discussion? Frankly you should be explaining to me why the entire melee Hunter archetype shouldn’t just be a subspec of BM, because so far “melee BM” is the only thing this spec has ever amounted to.
The point of bringing up the manual is to demonstrate the fallacy of pretending that a purely-melee Hunter was an intended playstyle in Classic. It simply wasn’t. You might have had a couple people try to make one, but never as anything more than a joke/meme. It was not something that held up in any form of remotely-serious content and that was by design. Same goes for shaman tanks, or perhaps Rogues who only used thrown weapons.
A couple of people joking around and never using their ranged weapon as a Hunter in classic doesn’t justify an entire spec losing the ranged weapon 12 years later. You still can’t confront the fact that every iteration of Survival before Legion had a ranged weapon.
No it isn’t, and no they didn’t
Like I’ve been saying this whole time, SV’s original state had a ranged weapon and it currently does not. Therefore it is necessarily very far from its original state. It’s missing the ranged toolkit with abilities like Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot, two abilities every iteration of SV had until Legion, as well as ranged utilities such as Distracting Shot and Tranquilising Shot. And that’s only the stuff from Vanilla, ignoring the things it gained in later expansions.
Furthermore, they didn’t “take away” crap. Survival in Burning Crusade was just Survival from Vanilla with more stuff added on top. Survival in WotLK was just Survival from Burning Crusade with more stuff added on top (with the notable exception of Readiness). The Survival we ended up with in WoD was the result of iterative change. There was no sudden and total revision of the spec from melee to range. That is and always has been a revisionist lie. And yes, I do think you are lying and not just misinformed because you clearly are aware of the design of Survival in Vanilla and yet you still choose to further this lie.
Even the current class icon has a ranged weapon on it.
FYI: this sounds positively dreadful, and proves my point that any attempt to cram ranged SV into MM will just result in a worse version of both specs.
They are different specs with different identities. It’s like trying to cram Affliction and Destruction into one, or Assassination and Subtlety, or Arms and Fury. They might look similar on the surface, but they really aren’t and it will never work.
I know that as a Survival Hunter you are probably used to having a hodgepodge mess of a spec with multiple watered-down, discordant identities in one, but most specs actually aren’t like that.
Or if you wanted better Agility and thus better ranged attack power you could spec into Lightning Reflexes in the Survival tree. Or if you wanted better ranged control you could spec into Wyvern Sting, again in the SV tree.
As we can see, melee lovers have no issue with colonising other classes with unwanted melee specs no matter how much damage it causes.
And also a unique ranged ability + a talent that disproportionately buffs ranged… *yawn*
It was not intended to primarily fight in melee and that’s how it worked out, end of story. That was the entire original point. Every objection afterwards from the pseudo-Hunters in this thread is nothing but stalling.
What, the classic WoW where Survival is being played primarily as a ranged spec, just as it was in the actual 1.12 state of the game?
What an astoundingly self-defeating argument.
The point was that if you can over-generalise and minimise the difference between the ranged Hunter specs, you can do it with the mage specs too plus many more in the game.
You’re clearly a melee zealot so let me use an example closer to home. Imagine if I said Assassination and Subtlety were nearly exactly the same; they both dual-wield, stealth, and have a fast-paced melee playstle along with some overlap in their toolkits. Or perhaps Arms and Fury Warrior: they both swing big sticks around and use rage with plenty of leaps and spinning around and cleaving and whatever, again with plenty of overlap in their toolkits. That’s what you’re doing with Marksmanship and Survival right now.
I don’t need to try out Survival to know that it’s melee and therefore I don’t like it.
By the way, I did try it out once (on a test realm, as there is no way I’m polluting my main character with that bad excuse of a Hunter spec). I found that it was, in fact, melee, and therefore I didn’t like it.
What on earth are you talking about? the 1.0 talent tree for Survival was famously terrible in all situations, not just from a tuning perspective but also from a basic design perspective. The melee talents were spread out and individually weak, as were the trap enhancements. 1.7 would condense these parts of the spec and add more talents which were all relevant and useful. I honestly don’t buy that the pre-1.7 version of the spec did more melee damage than the post-1.7 version, despite the supposed melee focus of that first iteration.
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Posting this separately because my first post was already really long and frankly this new poster is one of the more dishonest people I’ve ever seen on the Hunter forums, and that’s really saying a lot.
I realise the opportunity to call all Hunters stupid is too enticing for the ivory tower Survival Hunters to resist, but it really isn’t the predominant reason. Your spec isn’t rocket science and you aren’t special or gifted just because you play it. Hunters don’t want to play Survival because Survival is melee. Simple as that. Most Hunters don’t identify with the spec, and frankly even newer Hunters are more likely to play one of the only specs in the game that uses a ranged weapon than a generic 13th melee.
Yeah, yeah, I’ve heard this all before, including from Dilly himself. I’ve also seen plenty of PvP VoDs of Survival, in all of which it is being played primarily as a melee spec.
I know it is meant to stay at ranged v.s. other melee in times such as when they have their cooldowns up. However Mongoose Bite is a far, far larger portion of Survival’s total damage than what you’re letting up here, and the ranged cooldown only has so much uptime before you have to be in melee to use it.
Frankly, any melee requirement at all makes it not representative of what Survival was before Legion. Raptor Strike + Wing Clip back into ranged was very much a thing for all PvPing Hunters back then, but the fact is ranged combat was your forte no matter what you specced into and you were perfectly happy if the opponent never made it to melee range. That only became more true as each iteration was made to the class.
When I go play my MoP server and play Survival, I can see clearly how that spec was built up from the Classic version. I can’t do that anymore.
Will you still treat this point as a joke when you literally have the lead developer of WoW saying it?
https://warcraft.blizzplanet.com/blog/comments/gamescom-2017-world-warcraft-legion-patch-7-3-interview/2
“We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class”
As he would later point out, a big part of Survival’s identity was that it used these elements in its projectiles. The core identity was a ranged class and Survival expanded on it by having ranged shots buffed with fire and venom. That’s unique in WoW and a take on ranged weapons that feels intuitive and fitting in a fantasy MMO. Since Survival has gone melee, it is now almost totally unrepresented, so that we can have yet another melee.
Plus, that’s literally not the current fantasy of melee Survival. It’s just one of multiple competing, watered-down identities that makes up Survival right now. Just in my last post I was talking to someone who was saying that they should remove those abilities and double-down on the pet aspect of Survival, and that’s not an uncommon opinion in my experience.
Oh, I didn’t realise I could spec Survival and be running around shooting Explosive Shots at people with Lock and Load procs and Serpent Sting spreading via Multi-Shot like the good old days. My mistake!
The melee weapon is not a small thing. What a ridiculous thing to pretend. It changes everything. Survival before Legion was a fully-independent ranged damage dealer. That is no longer the case. You’re berating people for not still entertaining the spec even though for 12 seconds out of every 90 seconds it can pretend to be a ranged spec, acting like that’s somehow just as good as being a true ranged damage dealer.
P.S. Isn’t it hilarious how Survival now has to spec into something (Hydra’s Bite) to get a worse version of something that ranged Survival had baseline (Serpent Spread)? Just another example of how ranged SV was laterally superior to melee SV.
Ghorak is one of the most sincere people to post on these forums. You calling him intellectually dishonest is nothing more than immature projection.
It’s also ironic given you immediately follow it with such a ridiculous false equivalency. The problem with Serpent Sting right now is that it’s a pretend ranged weapon. It doesn’t actually exist. You can’t Auto-Shot with it or use any other of the iconic Hunter ranged attacks/utilities. They could just as well make it “Poisoned Throwing Axe” or something. Go check all the Survival iterations before Legion. They don’t lack a ranged weapon and only pull out a phantom crossbow out of nowhere. They instead all have a real ranged weapon and an array of strong ranged attacks.
We post longer posts for 2 reasons: we like being thorough, and we are often responding to multiple posts and people at once. When you are just dumping fallacy after fallacy in the thread with no regard for what’s actually true like you are doing here, you can keep your posts pretty short. When you’re actually interested in getting everything right, you have to write longer posts.
This reminded me of a point that should have been made already: what’s with this hyper-focus on PvP? PvE is the bigger part of the game. As a PvE player, it means nothing to me when you give the whole spiel of how BFA Survival is kind of like the old version if you look at the old version with an extremely blurred and revisionist perspective and gloss over the melee focus of the new version.
Actually, this cherrypicking of wording you’re doing regarding what Ghorak said about the fantasy of ranged Survival is the intellectually dishonest part of this thread.
He and I have talked about the fantasy of a ranged weapon user with projectiles buffed with explosives and venom extensively in the Hunter forums, including in this thread. You quotemined one instance where he didn’t explicitly name the ranged weapon focus and ran with it, pretending he doesn’t know that Survival happens to have a venomous shot and a grenade and that therefore the spec fits his vision for Survival and he doesn’t know it.
It’s not only dishonest but extremely immature, and is the telltale sign of someone who isn’t secure in his own viewpoints of Survival.
It’s cute how melee SV players trip over themselves to heap increasingly ridiculous praise on the spec. I swear you guys are about 2 steps away from declaring that the spec cures cancer.
Yes, the spec has a playstyle that flows well. Plenty of other specs do. Ranged Survival did. It also has an identity that’s a total mess. Its strength in PvP rests mostly on a couple PvP talents, and it virtually has no strengths in PvE at all that make it worthwhile. It’s not nearly the flawless shining beacon of good class design you all pretend it is.
P.S. The last time Survival was ranged its representation in rated PvP was vastly higher than what it is today, so even melee Survival in its strongest area of content still falls short of ranged Survival.
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The blind Crusader Bepples strike with a useless wall of text ! Its not very effective.
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If you would then fill in my delinquency of address to your elegant and incorrect statements simply by posting a few of the leader boards.
The ones I have checked show not only does nobody play the class but when they do they start ranking in the 40th position.
These are die hard people really, they farm gear for months and get burnt like a twig in 2 secs by a fire mage.
They come here and post an get all these opinions with no reference to credible rankings.
Again to cap this post if you respond do not respond without known links to stats we have different opinions and in that case you go to the stats.
If you respond without the sources I asked for I wont reply.
Don’t worry, he’ll just dismiss anything that’s being written by saying that “it’s a wall-of-text”.
Show us one case where Bepples responses to the quotes in his reply/replies above here that could be classified as being a “wall-of-text”.
And no, the reply as a whole cannot be classified as being a “wall-of-text”. That isn’t what “wall-of-text” means. Nor is it structured or formulated in such a way for it to be just that.
The same goes for @Scabber in regards to Bepples’ or my own replies…
I swear, some players use these “wall-of-text” arguments because they think it somehow justifies them not bothering to read what’s being written. Or because it they think doing so allows them to continue to spew out their nonsens…
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But I’m not asking for it. I just said I would like it. Learn to read.
See here.
If they made Sv back to range or lets say made so other change from a class I like. I would not cry like you have for the pass 4+ years. I would still play Hunter. When I switch spec, I like playing MM hunter with pet as I like MM over BM even is it a dps lost but I also like that we have a pure Archer option.
I will agree they “Blizz” should add another bow/gun spec/class to the game. But crying over spilled soup not going to change anything.
I like to point out that Ghorak did not say that, I did. Hit the Arrow in the quote. As I said, do you even read?.
And no we not stalling. You are.
Because melee hunter was garbage in classic. I will say it. That because Blizz did not know how to make good classes in classic. Funny as like 3 better mmos per WoW who had better classes. I’m off topic with that, sorry.
But um. With Classic Surv Hunter, the only points you put in is for dodge/parry/health and maybe some dps.
(Tryed to post a link but failed, google WoWhead Classic Hunter Talent Calculator)
If you did, you can see many of surv tree is melee/traps/survival stuff.
The enhance of “melee” of what a few said. Look at other classes. Many classes have points where it just enhance their melee or magic spells too.
__
I think this thread getting a little off topic. 
I’m kind of baffled. The people complaining about having issues soloing stuff like elites as SV must be doing something wrong.
I’ve found SV remarkably easy to stay alive with compared to most other classes’ specs. BM and SV both get a lot of good self-preservation tools for the open world.
Legion SV had a lot of issues with staying alive - I distinctly recall that being an issue I ran into frequently. Maybe people are mixed up about that, because I haven’t had any issues since they reworked it for BfA.
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You’ll find that, most of those that complains about SV on this forum, they dont play the spec at all or gave it a 10min try out.
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Played Survival since it came out, fact is this is closer to what a Hunter was Pre Cata…
He is just weak, his offensive and defensive skills are horrible … I rip them totally to shreds with this DH and most that play Survival know that …
His damage unless it is on a target dummy is real low…
Be better in PvP if the refresh on intimidation was 15-20 sec max to offset the roots i use as a DH …
I am gonna rinse an repeat root on you an not win but totally destroy you and you will wonder why you ever tried that one LOL.
If what i am saying is not true then do some one liners on defense that a Survival has against a DH or a Dot Spamming 900k Druid excuse me a sec ROFL MFAO ok I am better now …
Did I say 900k damage shielded healing melee class, this kills me to even have a talk about the Hunter …
People gave in a long time ago to the idea some classes are going to be so superior you can deal with it leave the game or make one.
So I made a couple, but I like my poor weak and purposely disadvantaged hunter cause he is fun …
It’s the same thing with all classes/specs. We have players that complain about the performance, utility, defensives etc. etc. No matter what spec it is. If it’s not the top dog, players will complain about it.
As for what you’re hinting at there, many players on these forum complain about MSV or say that they don’t enjoy playing it because they don’t like the playstyle.
It doesn’t require you to spend days of playing it to figure out if you like it or not.
I don’t even have to try it out to know that(even though I have done just that), knowing that it’s a melee spec is enough for me to stay away from it.
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People are stuck in the past /shrug. It’s the best spec out there.
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I’ve been playing my hunter as SV since I started back up when the patch came out. Don’t really have any issue with the spec other than visuals that I wish we could change with glyphs, and I think Kill Command is dumb. They really need to make MM not suck so bad.