A lot of them are just hating to hate… some dont even play it or even tried it, but they come to hate since thats all they really bring.
I should’ve clarified that it’s crucial for player perception and immersion how this fantasy is achieved. Yes, technically MSV checks several of those boxes.
But you’re forgetting that the way RSV fulfilled this fantasy, was through being a Munitions Expert and Trapper.
Munitions Expert = here, one who enhances ammunition/arrows used by ranged weapons.
Trapper = in this case, one who either through baseline effects or through regular talent options, enhances traps.
It’s not just a matter of having access to fire/explosives as well as poison/venom, but also about how you utilize those elements.
Example:
Current MSV makes use of venom through a “hidden” pocket-Xbow that shoots darts at enemies.
Yes technically, it does the job.
But still, in the eyes of many players, there’s a big difference between the above, and someone who is dedicated to an actual fighting style that involves the use of a ranged weapon to fire those bullets/arrows.
MSV has Wildfire Bomb, which like you said, ticks that box as well of “fire/explosives”.
But there’s a BIG difference between that and one who fires explosive bullets/arrows at enemies. Like how old RSV did it with Explosive Shot(no, not the current MM-version).
The irony is that current Wildfire Bomb for MSV, has nothing to do with actual Wildfire, and what this refers to.
So much for fulfilling a fantasy there…
“Incendiary Bomb” would be more suiting.
I very much like the idea of “wildfire” and what this can mean for us in the game via mechanics. Which is why I decided to include a type of design for it in my concept for RSV as a 4th spec(link in my earlier replies).
I like how well that theme fits with hunter Traps.
Yes, I have tried MSV both in Legion and BfA.
But even though it fulfills certain partial fantasies like those you mentioned above, it does not do it in a way that we who want RSV back, are looking for.
It also happens to be a spec that focuses on melee-combat. Something that I and many other hunters have no interest in(when playing as hunters).
So to answer your argument there, it does not matter how much we play current MSV. In it’s current form, it will never achieve what we are asking for.
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I ain’t reading that wall of text, homie. You’re intellectually dishonest and I’m not here for it.
You’re over here ranting about the “hidden” crossbow, seemingly forgetting all ranged weapons were hidden initially. A hunter with a polearm on their back is literally the original look.
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That’s not a wall-of-text. Think before you post.
How?
First off, and?
How does that change the fact that ranged weapons was the main focus(as far as weapons went) for all versions of the hunter up until Legion, in terms of abilities and most mechanics?
Second.
When did I say something that somehow made it appear as if I had “forgotten” that ranged weapons were not visible when “sheathed” in the early days/expansions?
And third.
How can you say that I’m “intellectually dishonest” if you’re not even going to “read my wall of text” ?
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That’s exactly what it was, most of your posts are. People that post walls of text aren’t typically very aware of when they’re doing it. It’s a psychological tactic rooted in “overwhelming” the “opponent” and it’s usually a subconcious process.
I’m not here to play wall vs wall, I’m just here to point out that you (and others) obviously have little experience with the spec outside of complaining about it. Your complaints boil down to nothing more than “I wish my abilities were skinned differently”, because for all intents and purposes “melee” surv is already ticking those boxes in the avenue of the game (pvp) where it is most commonly played.
ThInK BeFoRe YoU PoSt, maybe learn to gear a surv hunter before you pretend to be familiar with the playstyle.
Easily. You expressed that the “fantasy” of survival is no longer “fire/explosives and poisons/animal venom + trap enhancements” and when confronted with the fact that that’s very much so still the fantasy of the spec, you retreated to “THATS NOT WHAT I MEANT” and sought to redefine what “the fantasy of fire/explosive and poisons/animal venom” meant.
That’s patent intellectual dishonesty. I don’t care if you want to have a back and forth argument about it. I’m not here for that. I’m here to simply point out that your excessively long posts don’t mask the fact that you’re not actually that knowledgeable about a spec that you want changed.
Fox and the grapes, my man.
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The total length of posts/replies depends on how many players you respond to within a single post. Or, how many different sub-topics from another player you choose to respond to.
I have never tried to overwhelm my “opponent(s)” with such posts.
Btw, “opponents” ? Really?
If you don’t have the patience to read posts where another player responds to multiple sub-topics or multiple other players at once then, that’s not on me(or others like me). That’s on you.
Little experience in terms of what?
What have I said that warrants you saying something like this?
Since when is the argument of a spec being more commonly played in a specific type of content a valid one in a discussion about player preferences towards design and aesthetics? And preferred fantasies?
Is this supposed to mean something?
How do you “learn to gear” your character?
And, since when does your gear have anything to do with the base design of a class or specialization?
Wow…
Really?
Okay, my bad, I thought it was obvious in this discussion.
Okay here we go:
RSV made use of fire/explosives along with poison/animal venom through ranged weapons by enhancing the ammunition and arrows used by said ranged weapons.
RSV since the early days also held talents and effects that were exclusive to this specialization(or even before then when it was still a talent category and not an actual core specialization), which focused on enhancing your regular Traps.
When I typed this:
I assumed that anyone reading it would know that “fire/explosives”, “poison/animal venom” and/or “trap enhancements” are mere tools for achieving the actual fantasy/theme.
The part of you utilizing these tools, specifically the “fire/explosives” and the “poison/animal venom” parts, through a ranged weapon you carried with you, I again thought was obvious as being implied for it to be an actual fantasy.
But yeah, my bad then I guess for not specifically including that part.
(I guess Bepples was right when he said that his posts were so long because he wanted to be thorough enough in his writing/way of formulating his sentences to avoid these types of…occurrences)
Again, full post lengths have little to do with this as it all depends on how many sub-topics or players you respond to within a single reply.
Second, what have I talked about that makes it seem as if I’m not “knowledgeable” regarding current MSV? Note that I’m not actually as I have only played it on the alpha/beta as well as early on in the expansion(once it went live). But what does that have to do with looking at and analyzing the design of abilities and effects themselves?
And thirdly…
I HAVE NEVER said that I want MSV to be changed back to RSV.
Did you miss this part?(link)
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If you lack enough self-control to know when you’re droning on endlessly, that’s absolutely on you.
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Is this supposed to mean something?
If so, by all means, show me how I’m doing this.
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Yeah, it means you like to hear yourself talk and everyone can see that.
Sorry you don’t like the taste of your own foot.
I could be wrong, but I believe the breakdown in communication between you and Ghorak comes from the fact that you two seem to be functioning from two entirely different set of premises.
Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you! 
You’re saying that the specs are adequately diversified by their roles, hence why you say “Pet/Ranged/Melee.” For mages, you say “Frost/Arcane/Fire” because you’re focused on the schools of magic. For druids, you say “Healer/Tank/Melee/Ranged.”
By your logic, you feel it’s a foolish waste for the hunters to get a fourth spec because it’ll be “Pet/Ranged/Melee/Ranged.”
Am I reading your posts correctly?
Ghorak’s argument, on the other hand, is from this perspective:
Warriors have Melee/Tank (melee)/Melee.
Rogues have Melee/Melee/Melee.
DKs have Tank (melee)/Melee/Melee.
Mages have Ranged (magic)/Ranged (magic)/Ranged (magic).
Warlocks have Ranged (magic)/Ranged (magic)/Ranged (magic).
Hunters used to have Ranged/Ranged/Ranged. Then Blizzard changed that into Ranged/Ranged/Melee.
His second argument (though this is more of Bepples) is that there’s 3 types of ranged weapon in the game: guns, bows, and crossbows. Those weapons ought be represented by one spec each, like how the melee specs (including tanks) got to represent one weapon type in Legion. Crossbow was the only weapon that didn’t get an artifact.
THIS is where I suspect the two of you have come to a dead-end; you’re coming off two completely different premises and misunderstanding each other.
If I’m reading your posts wrong, Mardomus, please let me know. 
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How can you hear something which is written on a forum?
But yeah…keep going with this argument mate. You’re well on your way into the “personal attacks” area of replying to other players.
Usually this means that you’ve run out of proper counter-points/arguments.
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The 1.0 Talent tree was good you could re-implement that today right now and buff the damage across the board and it would be great.
I have no idea why they literally destroyed Survival Spec and I mean destroyed turned inside out and made the Spec undesirable to play by people who played them since day one.
Epic clapback, simply amazing!
Wait, no, this is sophomoric pedantry and boy is it cringe
We’re not having an argument. You made some comments about the “fantasy” of survival not being met by current abilities, I pointed out that that fantasy is absolutely still in play, even if you don’t enjoy it, and suggested that you lack familiarity with our best azerite trait, which heavily ties into one of those themes.
It’s not an argument. There’s nothing to argue. You don’t know as much about surv as you use excessive verbage to pretend.
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Ghorak, you’re only getting mad at Scabber. Ignore Scabber, don’t let them successfully derail your discussion. Take a breather from this thread and come back later with a clear head. Your argument is getting a little repetitive and blurred, I can tell you’re tired.
It’s far better for this thread to have clear-thinking posters instead of hotheaded arguments and trolling. /looks pointedly at a certain goblin… maybe two
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Lemme compliment y’all on keeping the stereotypes of the hunter forums alive, though.
Y’all soft-serve talking about spec themes with all the seriousness of a 2007 Elitist Jerks thread.
Survival is a joke in PVP take a look at the leader boards or any PVP board or show me your PVP wins in the arena.
The demon hunter with the rare AOE stun will spam that on you and shred you.
As far as mobility all classes now have gap closers on quick refresh finished by a stun and burst.
I use 30% run speed increase and I am easily caught by every class I can think of…
I use disengage do a 180 degree turn and get caught in midair by a stun so whats the point of disengage ???
I use turtle with Chetah and get stunned or rooted by some classes thorough turtle are you serious ?
LOL >>> So great for PvP that when you look for survival they are on the bottom, fact is the bottom was lowered to give them a spot…
You got a new lower bottom now for Survival Spec in PvP …
You mean that I’m assuming that is what he meant with his post(s)?
Or?
Sorry Mist but, yeah, if Bepples has at some point argued this then fair enough. Though, this is not something which I have voiced any desire towards.
I have only voiced my opinion towards the fact that MM is a spec focused on the archery/sharpshooting fantasy. No matter what type of ranged weapon you use.
While RSV was focused on the ammunition/arrows, enhancing them. Essentially allowing you to not having to care much for optimal aim/accuracy.
Note, as I’ve said before, I’m not a native English speaker so, there may very well have been some cases where I’m not understanding another player correctly.
You said this yes. And I responded that the things you mentioned are mere tools for achieving the actual fantasy of the old RSV.
Again, my bad for assuming that the part of utilizing these tools through the use of ranged weapons, that this part was obvious when referring to how current MSV no longer fulfills the fantasy of SV prior to Legion…
Don’t worry Mist
I don’t get mad while in discussions on forums. But yeah, I see what you’re after.
Repetitive? Oh yes, the very subject brought up in all these discussions is repetitive to say the least.
Blurred? Tired?
Not sure how, but again, I’m not a native English speaker(or writer) so if things sometimes seem a bit…weird then, that may very well be the reason.
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Not really accurate. Survival is really well designed in pvp, but the overall meta is bad because we’ve had multiple seasons where survivability was through the roof for certain problem comps.
Survival is, on paper, the best spec in the game, design-wise, but it’s a spec that shines in short duration games. Surv is strongest when games last 5 minutes at most, not 15 minutes on average, because we’re going to inevitably fall behind on defensives over a 15 minute game.
This season should be a little better for us if you’re able to get certain raid weapons and the right corruption affixes, as presently corruption is leading to VERY short games.
Even when we’re a Tier 1 spec, surv is never going to be high on representation; this thread is a good example of why. Most hunters simply refuse to play the spec to the extent that they’re demonstrably clueless about its playstyle. Couple that with hunters always having had low representation, which has traditionally been the result of risk vs reward (hunters have a higher than average skillcap, and trap is the easiest CC to use incorrectly)
Last season was notably bad for us, though. Even Dillon settled on a regular glad title instead of R1. That was a first for him.
The demon hunter with the rare AOE stun will spam that on you and shred you.
That’s…not how that works anymore.
Where does the Survival Hunter show up on the PvP boards in what position?
You can tear that paper up. there are lots a things that look good on paper and they are not good at the application layer.
I play the spec everyday, farmed gear for months and it is a brand new round of raid kicks (Shadow Lands) for me until people get geared and they just need filler.
Responses like yours do not address the tiny player base of the class, if fails to look at the placement of the Survival Hunter on the PvP boards.
When you said on Paper it looks great gave me chills, I have not heard that expression in years the only time you hear that expression anymore is after total failure.
I’m not a native English speaker either, so I’m trying to (clumsily) understand the two of you.
Your responses to his posts and his responses to your posts both seem to miss the mark of what each other are saying. He keeps going on and on about “Pet/Ranged/Melee is enough!” whereas you keep going on about “ranged and themes do matter” (which is why I thought of weapon types. I guess I come from the perspective that themes and weapon types blend together).
From what I see, you two don’t really seem to answer each other’s points. But I readily concede that I may have missed it. 
Uh, I meant as in that you’re repeating the same arguments over and over without adding any new point. I know you’re getting ganged up on. I know the multiple posters are saying the same points over and over.
But buddy, they’re doing it on purpose! They’re making you spin in place and making you look bad so they can “discredit” you in the future. Heck, they’re doing it exactly right now by claiming that your “text wall” posts are practically copy-and-paste.
It’s not accurate, nor is it particularly nice, but they are playing with you. That’s why I advise you to back out for a day, re-think things over and come back with new arguments. Move the ball into their court.
If you need clarification, as a non-native English user to another, ask away and I’ll try my best.
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