Why surv is the least played?

[Xazaloa-daggerspine]

with no melee damage mitigation

uh…your pet IS your ‘mitigation’.
What the hades are you going on about?
The spec is filled to the brim with ‘mitigation’…
Muzzle and intimidation both interrupt that spell about to damage you
Feign Death does wonders for getting crap off your back and onto your pet that you can HEAL pretty easily with both Mend and Exhilaration.
Let me guess… you DONT have your pet taunt keybound, Im guessing. If not, thats half your problem right there.
Misdirection to get the heat off YOU and onto tanky or pettypoo…‘mitigation’.
Are you even playing the spec, OMFG?

I mean I just tried and it is much more fun than mm and bm. Specially bm… which is awful in terms of fun.

Can You guys explain me why is the least played spec?

I dont see the OP asking about PVP only, btw…there is much more to this game than PvPing, which we all know is quite different than PvE play.
At that rate we should ALL just play tank specs instead of anything else…if PVP is all that matters in this game

[Demonique-the-underbog]

the thread is why is SV the least played spec why are you posting here ?

[Demonique-the-underbog]

So that is why Survival is the least played spec ?

[Dillon-sargeras (Dillon)]

I already pointed out SV is the least played because it has a bigger learning curve in comprison to many other specs that have been simplified in this xpac, while also still only having a style comfortable enough for hunter players and not melee players (so melee players aren’t suddenly swapping over) and most hunters want to only shoot a bow so it deters them from trying SV

It’s nothing to do with it’s strength on why it isn’t played much (although fwiw it is the most played spec by far in PvP especially arenas lol), just an odd spec that people aren’t too willing to try

[Xazaloa-daggerspine]

It’s nothing to do with it’s strength on why it isn’t played much (although fwiw it is the most played spec by far in PvP especially arenas lol), just an odd spec that people aren’t too willing to try

It doesnt play like the other two, for certain…and as you seem to point out, Id bet THAT is why it isnt played as much…and if its not being played as much, probably why it might be under represented in competitive play in the first place.

personally, I couldnt give a hozenrump. I like it, its fun to play and until they screw it up, as we can all rest assured they will at some point, I’ll keep playing it and enjoying every second of it.

[Nellezhar-whitemane]

It’s utterly ridiculous to pretend the primary drive for any significant amount of people was the ridiculously situational nature of most of the Hunter toolkit

That’s not what I said. I said its that type of design that brought people back.

Classic’s class design is actually one of the most frequently mentioned downsides I see on the forums.

I’ve observed the opposite? You’re point?

P.S. I know Lacerate was the last talent before 1.7 but a) the spec still used a ranged weapon and b) Lacerate also doesn’t exist in the current Survival.

So you know your logic is false? I didn’t say it was a melee only spec. If that’s what he thinks, he’s wrong. It was designed to enhance the melee abilities of the hunters toolkit.

P.P.S. Survival also had Lightning Reflexes which boosted Agility. Agility was the stat on all our gear, and it gave 2 ranged attack power and 1 melee attack power per point. The intent of the class was pretty clear.

Yeah it has some ranged things in the tree as well. But the majority is to boost melee capabilities. You’re treating the tree like its an all or nothing tree. It’s a hybrid like i said MANY times. What else does agility do? Increase melee crit chance with ranged AND Melee, increase dodge chance?
I’m sorry man, you’re wrong in this. It exists to increase the melee capabilities in the hunters base core kit. No you didn’t charge at them to get into melee, but if they stepped into it you were more than capable to finish it.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

its that type of design that brought people back.

The people who liked/likes it, sure.

I didn’t say it was a melee only spec. If that’s what he thinks, he’s wrong. It was designed to enhance the melee abilities of the hunters toolkit.

I believe the point here is that no matter what specific talents you could pick from either talent category back then. No matter what you could specialize in, you were still, by design, meant to focus primarily on ranged combat, using your ranged weapon. As much as possible.

Anything outside of that, was only meant to be situational. This includes the melee-aspects of the class from back then, baseline or otherwise.

It’s a hybrid like i said MANY times.

It exists to increase the melee capabilities in the hunters base core kit. No you didn’t charge at them to get into melee, but if they stepped into it you were more than capable to finish it.

In context, “hybrid” hints at a playstyle where the design allows for you to want to intentionally push for both sides, at your convenience. A choice made by yourself.

Sure, Hunters were capable at attacking enemies from melee-range in Vanilla/Classic. But the design of the class(as a damage dealer)did not intend for that to be something you wanted to do. Not unless you were willing to severely drop in your damage-capabilities for as long as you remained within melee-range.

It exists to increase the melee capabilities in the hunters base core kit.

Technically, this is true in that this is specifically something certain talents from this category did.

But why? That’s the real question.

Were those talents there for you to pick so you could become a melee-hunter? Or a hybrid?

No. They were there so you could be somewhat stronger even in situations where ranged combat was not an option. Meaning, when you did not really have a choice.

The fact that any and all melee-abilities we had back then that dealt damage, except for Raptor Strike, required the enemy to be hitting you followed by RNG to be in your favor, to be used.
This means that it was not something intended to be used for any situation other than when an enemy(mostly other players) went after you, instead of your pet.

= a design meant for Survivability.

[Nellezhar-whitemane]

Were those talents there for you to pick so you could become a melee-hunter? Or a hybrid?

No. They were there so you could be somewhat stronger even in situations where ranged combat was not an option. Meaning, when you did not really have a choice.

That’s exactly what I said. I’m glad you figured it out.

This means that it was not something intended to be used for any situation other than when an enemy(mostly other players) went after you, instead of your pet.

= a design meant for Survivability.

No you didn’t charge at them to get into melee, but if they stepped into it you were more than capable to finish it.

Mhmm, that’s what I said.

I believe the point here is that no matter what specific talents you could pick from either talent category back then. No matter what you could specialize in, you were still, by design, meant to focus primarily on ranged combat, using your ranged weapon. As much as possible.

Yeah, that’s why I said quit treating the Tree’s as an all or nothing deal.

In context, “hybrid” hints at a playstyle where the design allows for you to want to intentionally push for both sides, at your convenience. A choice made by yourself.

I disagree here. I’m standing by the boosting the melee capabilities of the hunter’s core kit. Again, you didn’t charge at the enemy but if they closed the gap, you were more than capable to finish it off.

did not intend for that to be something you wanted to do.

You did want to, if you couldn’t trap feign, or scatter shot. You’re not going to just sit there wishing you ranged mate. You didn’t run at them, you’re forced into a melee situation, after peppering them from afar.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

That’s exactly what I said. I’m glad you figured it out.

No, you said they were there for you to become a hybrid.

I disagree here. I’m standing by the boosting the melee capabilities of the hunter’s core kit. Again, you didn’t charge at the enemy but if they closed the gap, you were more than capable to finish it off.

There’s a difference between being…capable…at doing something, and following that part of the design which allows for you to achieve the most of what is intended from your class.

You did want to, if you couldn’t trap feign, or scatter shot. You’re not going to just sit there wishing you ranged mate. You didn’t run at them, you’re forced into a melee situation, after peppering them from afar.

Yep, and in such cases, you’d do well to continue trying to get away from the enemy. As, most of the time, if you decided to stay in there with the enemy, it would not end well for you. (Depending on the enemy that is ofc).

---

---

Btw, this is all in reference to the main point of players claiming that MSV’s current design is taking the spec “back to it’s roots”.

Which, as you’ve stated yourself, is not true.

Because the roots of the spec(or back then: talent category), did not intend for you to intentionally seek out melee combat if you had the option to stay at range.
In order to deal the most damage.

Current SV(MSV), is designed for you to want to stay up close if you want to deal the most damage.

Does that mean that it’s always favorable for you to, as MSV, stay up close to an enemy? No, ofc not.

But that has nothing to do with the actual design. But everything to do with “method of playing”.

[Nellezhar-whitemane]

Btw, this is all in reference to the main point of players claiming that MSV’s current design is taking the spec “back to it’s roots”.

Which, as you’ve stated yourself, is not true.

Yeah it’s for sure not true. However, it being exclusively melee in my opinion isn’t a complete irrational choice by the designers. It was originally spec that boosted the melee capabilities of the hunters core kit. That’s where we differ. I can see the logical path the spec took. Even though I disagree the choice.

No, you said they were there for you to become a hybrid.

As did you.

No. They were there so you could be somewhat stronger even in situations where ranged combat was not an option.

Ranged first, Melee second. Hybrid. This is what i mean by it. You keep misunderstanding.

Because the roots of the spec(or back then: talent category), did not intend for you to intentionally seek out melee combat if you had the option to stay at range.
In order to deal the most damage.

This is true as I’ve said.

Yep, and in such cases, you’d do well to continue trying to get away from the enemy.

Again, if all your CD’s are down, that isn’t an option.

(Depending on the given situation that is ofc).

Fixed that for you.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

It was originally spec that boosted the melee capabilities of the hunters core kit. That’s where we differ. I can see the logical path the spec took. Even though I disagree the choice.

If we’re being technical, the actual “roots” of the spec known as Survival, only go as far back as Cataclysm.

Prior to this, we had no specialization known as Survival.
There were no specializations at all.

So in short, the true roots of the specialization, were focused on a ranged playstyle with ranged abilities. Otherwise known as RSV.

Why do I keep differing between the specialization Survival and the talent category, from before Cata?

Because there is a VERY clear difference between what each one of those were meant to achieve in terms of design and gameplay.

1. (the talent category) Was designed to only add to the core of the class.

2. (the specialization) Was designed to re-define the core of the class.

So again, technically, it is pointless trying to refer to/compare what Survival is today and what it was prior to Cata. At least in terms of using it as an argument for supporting the changes made to SV going into Legion.

What Survival was prior to Cata, does not apply to what it’s meant to be today. Those were entirely different concepts of design.

As did you.

No.

Fixed that for you.

Don’t alter quotes from another poster. If you do, then it automatically becomes a non-quote.

[Nellezhar-whitemane]

If we’re being technical, the actual “roots” of the spec known as Survival, only go as far back as Cataclysm.

We’re not. Because it makes no sense. They were always referred to as spec’s.
They still have the same names.
They still have some of the same abilities.
They still serve the same function.

So no, I highly disagree. This is a horrible argument to make, and won’t even engage.

No

Yes.

They were there so you could be somewhat stronger even in situations where ranged combat was not an option. Meaning, when you did not really have a choice.

Mainly Ranged, but can dish out melee if need be. Hybrid.

Don’t alter quotes from another poster. If you do, then it automatically becomes a non-quot

That went RIGHT over your head.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

We’re not. Because it makes no sense. They were always referred to as spec’s.

What players call those, doesn’t matter.

By definition and design, the old talent-system was not structured to act as dedicated core specializations. You can call what we had back then Specializations all you want. It does not make them so.

Here you got the WoW manual itself specifically saying that each class had 3 different types of “Talent Categories” with talents being sorted based on the class main strengths.

---

Every class has three categories of talents that are organized by
your class abilities. Mages, for instance, rely primarily on their
spells, which are broken up into the arcane, frost, and fire schools.
Thus, the mage’s talent categories are arcane, frost, and fire. Each
category can be accessed using the tabs at the bottom of the
Talents window.

---

You can find that here, on page 90:

http://us.media.blizzard.com/manuals/wow/wow-classic-manual-enUS.pdf

Furthermore:

---

The talent system is tiered. There are low-level talents you must
buy and master before you can learn high-level talents. However,
you can see all talents in a category, and see the paths leading to
all talents

All classes have talents that allow the player to customize their character.
Talents can be applied in the following ways:

-To improve a class’ existing spells or abilities.
-To alter the functionality of existing class spells or abilities.
-To acquire new spells and abilities.
-To improve class skills.

The three lines of class talents are geared towards each class’ main
strengths. For example, mages naturally divide their talents into arcane,
frost, and fire, which mimic the three main schools of magic mages learn.

---

Nowhere in that entire section are Talents/Talent Trees referred to as being Specializations.

They still have the same names.

And this matters here why?

They still have some of the same abilities.

Meaning?

They still serve the same function.

Not even close.

As the Manual states, talents back then only served to enhance, slightly alter, or add to the existing toolkit.

There’s nothing even remotely the same as what we have today with specializations that completely remakes what your gameplay is like, depending on which one you pick.

[Frîsto-area-52]

As the Manual states, talents back then only served to enhance, slightly alter, or add to the existing toolkit.

There’s nothing even remotely the same as what we have today with specializations that completely remakes what your gameplay is like, depending on which one you pick.

This is what it should go back to honestly.

[Strippendell-proudmoore]

As the Manual states, talents back then only served to enhance, slightly alter, or add to the existing toolkit.

There’s nothing even remotely the same as what we have today with specializations that completely remakes what your gameplay is like, depending on which one you pick.

This is what it should go back to honestly.

Apparently in blizz con this is the direction they are trying to take with their class design. They want each class to have a certain base and then the specializations add on it. This is gonna be interesting because with both rogues and hunters they made huge changes to get the specs more identity but this direction was met with a great deal of criticism, with the changes to SV hunters and Sub rogues being met with the highest amount of negative criticism.

They stated they planned on making some changes in shadowslands so that switching between specs doesn’t feel like switching classes but for hunters we still don’t know what that means, and they still haven’t stated how SV will get kill shot, or what other changes if any can we for see for shadowlands.

What we do know is that the forum is gonna light up again with old SV hunters once again asking for ranged SV back and melee SV hunters bracing themselves for what changes are to come.

As someone who enjoys both I just want either to dual wield or transmog my tiny crossbow to a better crossbow or a bow

[Nellezhar-whitemane]

That’s a really cool opinion my dude. I completely disagree, and that’s okay.
You can think the spec starts at cata, but at the end of the day I’m talking about the class and in this situation the spec at creation.

So again the original survival system was a hybrid spec meant to enhance melee capabilities that the hunter had.

Feel free to disagree you’re obviously not going to change your views, and I’m okay with that.

[Zalgo-emerald-dream (Zalgo)]

Survival is going to be incredibly odd in Shadowlands. Kill Shot, Hunter’s Mark, the Kyrian covenant ability that lets you shoot through walls, and access to starter ranged spells like Cobra Shot and Concussive Shot that’ll be unusable due to not having a ranged weapon…

Hm. And I thought current Survival was thematically incoherent.

I found Cataclysm to have the approach to spec-design that came the closest to my preferences. Barring some specific things ofc.

Wrath was the best for me. The talent trees were fleshed out enough that all specs had their own playstyles, but there was still the option for hybrid builds.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

This is what it should go back to honestly

Kind of depends, if you ask me.

Personally, if I preferred that design, I would be playing Classic.
I’m not saying that the current spec-based system is perfect. Not by a long shot.
But I do like having the option to really pick a more defined playstyle that differs from other ones. Beyond it just being a single talent adding 1 ability to the core.

But again, yeah, it would depend on how things were done.

I found Cataclysm to have the approach to spec-design that came the closest to my preferences. Barring some specific things ofc.

Apparently in blizz con this is the direction they are trying to take with their class design.

Maybe.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that we will be moving out several spec-specific core abilities to become baseline.

But they are adding some shared/class-wide abilities into the mix.

Like Hunter’s Mark, Kill Shot.
Along with Eyes of the Beast, although not a damaging ability.

Having said that, what happens in SL, we’re yet to find out.

They stated they planned on making some changes in shadowslands so that switching between specs doesn’t feel like switching classes but for hunters we still don’t know what that means, and they still haven’t stated how SV will get kill shot, or what other changes if any can we for see for shadowlands

Precisely.

Honestly, I would assume that they do to KS what they did with SrS for the spec.

But we’ll see.

That’s a really cool opinion my dude

It’s not an opinion…
It’s in the official Manual pertaining to the game from back then.

But yeah, sure.
Remain in your…bubble.

[Ghorak-laughing-skull]

Survival is going to be incredibly odd in Shadowlands. Kill Shot, Hunter’s Mark, the Kyrian covenant ability that lets you shoot through walls, and access to starter ranged spells like Cobra Shot and Concussive Shot that’ll be unusable due to not having a ranged weapon…

Shadowlands is just around the corner(?).

We’ll see what happens.

Wrath was the best for me. The talent trees were fleshed out enough that all specs had their own playstyles, but there was still the option for hybrid builds.

I liked it as well. Though the design of pure talent trees that filled up with more and more each expansion, wasn’t going to hold up that well in the long run.

Hence why they added in actual core specializations that contained the main abilities for each spec which we previously found at the bottom of the talent trees.
And more ofc.

[Wernstrom-thrall]

Survival is the least played because it’s a little confusing and there aren’t any good guides. Icy Veins is incomplete and only describes one build. The class discord’s guide is a link to Icy Veins.

I’m an altoholic and switch classes and specs regularly and SV took me longer by far to wrap my head around; partly because I had to pick through Icy Veins, Trueshot, and my own sims to put a (mediocre) build together.

Most players aren’t going to do that. They’re going to try it for an hour, get frustrated, and then come crying on the forums and never pick it back up.

p.s. If there’s a better guide for m+, pvp, raids plz link it I could use the help.