SV can and does have to kite other melee. Kindwolf is absolutely talking up its effectiveness, though, as he tends to do. This is the same person who argues that SV puts up strong ranged pressure in Southshore v.s. Tarren Mill, after all.
Retribution Paladin and Arms Warrior both had substantially higher representation in rated PvP last patch. I won’t pretend to know how they fared in 1v1 situations but from what I’ve heard arena situations are actually more favourable to SV, or at least were before average game length started to go way up.
Well that could explain why there is a grand total of ONE non-SV Hunter in the top 400 teams (can’t remember if it was 2’s or 3’s but i think it was 3’s) last i checked. Of course Hunters have lost huge amounts of players since they destroyed the class when they introduced Melee SV in Legion and BM/MM have suffered IMMENSELY for it.
MM/BM play like relative garbage and their dps is pitiful in PvP with little survivability, required pets to use and almost no self healing. MM get’s doubly punished because you have to hard cast and turret as a kiting class.
It’s very clear to me whoever works on MM/BM has absolutely no clue how to improve the classes and you are seeing that with the tiny 5% buff to MM dps which does nothing to fix the classes problems in PvP.
SV is better than the others in rated PvP for a few reasons, but there are two that stand out:
The ranged specs being especially bad. MM started off bad and stayed that way for the entire expansion. BM was extremely OP on launch and got huge nerfs back-to-back in the first couple months of BFA that made it one of the worse-off specs but still distantly competitive. Their damage is mediocre and their survivability is flat-out bad.
SV has very strong CC, particularly from Ranger’s Net which does not share a DR timer with trap. SV can also guarantee trap placement via Harpoon which roots the target and again is not on DR with trap. Coupled with the right comp and its strong cooldown burst it’s very good at CCing a healer and zerging the other in a way MM and BM can’t really pull off. As survivability in general has ramped up as the expansion is going on it’s becoming less and less effective, however.
Disclaimer: I do not do rated PvP. The most I’ve done this expansion was a quick grind to 1400 (which is very, very low) just so I would get my Conflict and Strife rank 3 essence in 5 weeks instead of 15. I did that as BM and did mostly fine, but it’s not representative of PvP at higher ratings. I instead base what I say from talking to actual highly-rated PvP players and trying to determine the consensus. I also like to depend on representation statistics because too often people base their perception on spec representation on anecdotal experience.
Personal opinion. Not facts. Highly varies in different PvP senarios (wpvp, arena, bg)
Personal opinion.
I mean, what else is to add? Your personal experience has shown hunters to be weak, but another’s show them being strong. You ignore the major factor of pvp, it ain’t class… its player skill.
Not personal opinion, it was known IN legion and was all over the place, it’s not like i was shouting it from on high, go back and look for yourself. Lo’ts of folks left playing Hunter in Legion…LOTS.
The ONLY thing this depends on is if they are being focused or not because survivability is a known issue. You are entitled to think they have alot of survivability and self healing if you run with a spirit pet, but that is your opinion. As the group of PvP get’s larger the Hunter can hide more. If the pet is hitting alot of targets it pads the meters, nothing more. Single target dps is pitiful compared to other classes.
If you think this while similarly geared classes can do easily 30-50% more damage in a given time and the only time BM seems to do much is if they live long enough to hit groups and if MM can live long enough to turret…then that is a you thing.
It was known by angry people, which no matter the number… the angry mob always speak the loudest.
If 1 person out of 10 was unhappy, you’ll only hear about that 1 person while the rest enjoy their side.
1- Pvp isnt balanced toward 1v1, this is a MMO, play with friends.
2- Player skills comes in.
3- Personal experience told you that, mine says something else and someone else’ says different too.
By doing like some others do. Take 1 slice of the pie and trying to make it sound like it is the whole pie.
Ok cool, they are not favorable in Arena, not for the reason you might believe in.
Thats one slice of the pie… you forgot:
BG
Rated BG
Wpvp
Skirm (Yes some people only does that)
You can’t keep falling back to data that doesn’t exist. The only statistics we have are of raiding and rated PvP. There is no reason to believe Survival is secretly amazingly popular everywhere else except those areas, especially given BM’s dominance in solo content.
Has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with comparative damage and survivability of MM/BM to other classes. By definition if you are comparing the classes…then you are comparing 1 to 1. If i am on one of my BM Hunters and they are similarly geared to my warrior and DH and it does ~11k dps and my warrior/dh are doing 20-27k dps… it has absolutely NOTHING to do with playing with friends.
Sure, being able to get the most out of a toon is important if we were talking about duels, we aren’t. The classes are what they are. Compare them yourself if you want.
Not just my personal experience. NOT NEARLY just mine. But sure it is mine as well.
Cool got it, so you have nothing but your own personal opinion to backup anything you say other then devils advocate and conjecture. That’s ok too, you are entitled to your opinion. I am just not the only one that shares my opinion and apparently arena players also share it (keep in mind i stopped looking after 400 because the writing was on the wall).
I already said MM’s/BM’s will perform better as the PvP group get’s larger (because they are not very high on the priority list since they are relatively weak). That doesn’t change the reality that comparatively speaking to other classes they lack survivability and self heals (part of survivability) and their dps is low.
While arena is not the whole PvP scene it is one of the most important for comparative reasons because of small comps.
Hunters as they are now fall in 2 camps…focus kill because they are relatively easy to kill in BG’s and Wpvp (idk about rateds as i haven’d done them in years and there is no information on them readily available) or they are ignored because of their relative lack of dps until more important targets are focused down.
I mean, i can say the same thing you are, you want to discount Arena because it doesn’t fit your opinions narrative. Ok, but i still have arena representation to back up what i said… you have conjecture and YOUR anecdotal opinion, unless you have something you can point to beyond that?
Cool, but my data is that there is no valid data. Only personal experience. You can’t keep using that tiny fragment of the game and making it sound like its the whole game representing everything. That’s just lying.
There ya go ! This is as valid for you as it is for me !
If you wish to speak Rated Arena only or any focused part of the game that has data, then lets go and use it!
But talking in general using fragments is handling the data incorrectly. Otherwise we just have personal opinion clashing with another’s. Neither side is wrong or right.
Well yea…if we were only talking about your opinion and my opinion. But i brought actual data into the conversation. So while your opinion is valid and you are entitled to it. You have nothing to backup that my opinion is wrong.
No, it’s using the data available. I could point to the fact that i rarely see BM hunters in BG’s too but that would be only anecdotal. So i point to their lack of participation in a wide ranging portion of the game.
If you want to refute the reality of their representation because…that’s what you want to say without anything to refute it, go for it. As i said that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
I guess the big question is if BM/MM Hunters are just fine then explain to me why there is little to no participation by them in Arena?
Besides conjecture and devils advocate, what do you have to disprove my opinion as well as the data that they aren’t represented in arena?
Sorry, then you are delusional in thinking taking a fragment of data and saying its the same everywhere else in the game. So no, you didn’t bring any valid data, you only brought a fragment of it, an incomplete one.
Arena, BG, Wpvp all have different needs and style. Big difference.
In arena it isnt all about doing dmg or having self healing. Big part of it is the class synergy with CCs and combined burst. At that, sadly hunter is pretty limited.
I guess you dont fully understand… but I’ll say this.
This is a MMORPG, it is meant to be played with friends / others. Things arent balance on the 1v1. Each class will have strength and weakness. Not all class will have a self heal, a stun, a fear, a range attack, stealth. Its so simple, yet some people demand that every one turns into the same thing.
So in the end, a MM or BM hunter have strong and weak points in different content of PvP.
Well since i just proved you have the same opinion as me…i guess we both don’t fully understand.
HAS NOTHING TO DO with BM/MM Hunters being non-viable in rated PvP. If you think they are balancing the game around world PvP and 10v10 or 15v15 BG’s, you are free to think that.
Has NOTHING TO DO with what we are talking about. You keep going back to this, we aren’t talking about duels. Having said that you DO STILL have to be in a position to do dps in order to be successful. That is just a fact.
Actually…YEA they almost all do, because Class and spec homogenization has been going on for a LONG TIME. That is why you can jump from class to class and have almost the same experience and they all feel the same.
Not sure where this came from…but whatever.
LOL, this could be said about every class? It’s a meaningless statement.
The reality is that BM/MM Hunters don’t get played in rated arena’s because they are not viable due to the issues already covered. Not really sure why that bothers you, but for some reason it does. They are easy to kill in PvP because they lack self heals and survivability (Self heals is part of that but it’s more then just that) and they lack dps to pressure and kill compared to other classes.
You can like it, you can not like it, you can have an opinion that
on one end and then saying they are “fine” in some
has no basis in reality. NONE. It’s just your opinion backed up by nothing. Grats, you are welcome to your opinion. Because guess what, if you are so bad as a class that you can’t stand up in 2v2 or 3v3 PvP…then the ONLY thing you can “excel” at as the groups get bigger is hoping you can hide long enough to do something. You don’t suddenly get to be a better class because you are with your “friends”. I mean that you would even mention WPvP as something to be considered when ALMOST ALL WPvP is opportunists surprising undergeared people or groups smashing solo/smaller groups of poeple.
You don’t have some special knowledge of this, you have ZERO data to point to, it doesn’t change no matter how many friends you play with, it’s not about dueling. It’s just a simple fact, comparatively BM/MM Hunters are lacking compared to other classes.
Says the guy who provides no data and has the same opinion as me.
LOL, and here we have it. You have such circular logic i show how your opinion even matches mine with your own words…but somehow even though we are talking about opinion and partial data i must be lying.
Wait let’s do what you did:
Same as you.
Because it doesn’t fit your narrative.
PvP is PvP, it’s not different depending on content. You have your abilities and they are what they are. You do dps and it is what it is. Those abilities and your dps is what it is no matter what form of PvP you play and it doesn’t change. That it is SUBPAR TO OTHER CLASSES is what we are talking about. For some reason that seems to be beyond you even though i have proven with your own words you agree.
Another ridiculous statement. They don’t balance the classes based on ANYTHING to do with this, it’s not balanced around your friends, it’s not balanced on WPvP, it’s not balanced on BG’s, its not balanced on Rated BG’s. You can like it, you can not like it, doesn’t change those facts.
LOL.
Except proving you have the same opinion as me regardless of your narrative or how you want to package that.
This is what YOU SAID, not me.
You should probably have quit when i brought your circular logic around to the fact you agree with me (i would have…but well i don’t get stuck in that position), but instead you have tried to double down…still with ZERO DATA, answering ZERO pointed questions (because you can’t).
I will however say, good night. And no i don’t expect you to triple down.
Edit: Not really sure why you liked several of my posts, but ok. Conversation is conversation, no hard feelings either way.
I can’t speak for what they(devs) would do or not.
But as far as I’m concerned, RSV could easily be made to play very differently from that of both BM, MM as well as MSV ofc.
Example:
Whether you’ll like this or not, is up to you really.
But it would be about DoTs, about building them up in duration and/or strength. As well as capabilities to spread/apply them to multiple targets at once.
It would also be about enhancing traps.
And, something which this class lacks entirely, a spec which has pets and pet focus as a middle ground.
By that I mean that we now have BM+MSV which are pet-centric specs, with mandatory pet reliance.
Making it one of the extremes.
We also have MM which has no pet reliance what-so-ever. You can have a pet out, but that’s it. This is the opposite side of the extremes from that of BM/MSV.
What’s missing is a spec which could have both the option for Lone Wolf, as well as options to rely more on a pet.
There’s more to it than that ofc, but feel free to check it out for yourself.
All of the above, are aspects which none of the current hunter specs focus on, either partially or at all. In terms of how they are focused.
Making a spec like that, unique. Both in theme, mechanical design and aesthetics.
The difference?
My goal is to make the game better. You’re trying to ridicule other posters and troll on the forums.