Why surv is the least played?

Classes Hunter
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misuse_of_statistics

I don’t care about your eyes, they’re probably too close together anyway/

No, they serve as a decent snapshot of the playerbase’s preferences for the content to which that specific log is applicable
It’s not rocket science, nor is it a deep enough topic to really necessitate the walls of text and literal years of discussion.

No, it can’t, and this idiotic belief that it can is what leads to a lot of specs having trouble getting into M+ even if they’re actually stronger than the spec everyone flocks to based on raid logs.
You know what changed in this game, pve-wise? Obsessing over logs and sims used to be something only the highest end raiders did. With the instant accessibility to such now (versus needing to actively maintain a spreadsheet personally in the past) you’ve got a whole new generation of players that think they’re theorycrafters yet can’t recognize how insanely poor their own theories are.

Survival is ironically a great example of this. Surv’s got viability issues in raiding, but it’s actually incredibly strong in M+; but since waterheads don’t see surv hunters clogging the raiding charts, it takes a lot of convincing to get a surv hunter into an M+ group in the first place sometimes.

Sometimes there is such a thing as too much data, too much information. Have you ever heard the phrase, “Paralysis by Analysis?”

All this is for you guys is the hunter variation of watercooler talk. You might as well rename any thread about survival to “Hunter General Chat” because the “discussion” is about as meaningful as the casual chit-chat of the various general threads that most sub-forums have these days.

But we can’t be honest with ourselves, we have to act like we’re turning over a fresh stone every time we talk about how StaTiStiCaLLy SigNiFiCaNt the amount of players playing a spec in WoD was compared to now.

The delusion that what you’re participating in is a DeBaTe is honestly kind of sad. This isn’t what debates look like, and that’s not just because I’m outright aggressive towards you three.

Do you even play this game, by the way? Or are you one of those people that primarily “discusses” the game?

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Firstly off, thank you for your response! I especially appreciate that Wikipedia link. :grin:

And now to this part… you’re right. This change has happened so gradually, I hadn’t even noticed it, but you’re right. Simming is a lot more widespread now compared to the past. I hadn’t considered that.

This happens? That’s a huge shame; I’ve been told by so many regular mythic players that the specs used for raiding and mythics are different, so I had assumed that it isn’t a problem. Clearly I was wrong.

Yup! Funny thing is, I heard that term all the time while I was in college, but out there in employment, this term rarely gets used. (But I disgress.)

All the same, this is the first time this point gets brought up in the first place. Only if people would say, “Hey, I think this is a classical example of paralysis by analysis,” instead of, “You’re wrong and you’re dumb. GTFO and find out what you did wrong.” It would’ve been a lot more beneficial to the discussion, because this is a very good point.

/shrug

I don’t think you’re aggressive at all. The only point which gave me pause was the English thing.

I don’t really consider myself a part of this discussion, but if you insist…

I wish. :sob:

I’ve been using the same Mac laptop for the past 7 years (since it was gifted to me by a family friend). Regrettably, this specific Mac uses an Intel graphics card, on which the WoW client has been broken for since 8.3 dropped. I can’t do any WoD/Legion/BFA content without freezing and crashing. So I’ve been playing my low-level alts.

Also, I can only look wistfully at mythics and raiding. I work in a 50-hour job and I’m lucky if I manage to carve out two hours worth of playtime a day.

So, yeah, I suppose that right now I’m one of those people who discusses the game on the forums during my breaks. :sweat_smile:

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Because there was a small group who were pretty loud on forums for the very short lived melee spec and how GREAT it was. SO, Blizzard moved heaven and hell to make it a melee spec, alienated the people who wanted a ranged SV hunter by eliminating it altogether and made the genius decision to do all this with the introduction of the Demon Hunter and making melee too strong for raids thus eliminating the necessity for an underperforming melee spec that was at best underwhelming.

Also, and I really want to stress the “FINISH HIM” blow performed to hunters by this dev team, the investment into a weapon that you couldn’t switch on the fly never gave anyone the chance to say, “maybe I’ll try SV hunter” because the obstinate decision for Blizzard to INSIST on an unnecessary time wall to invest into one weapon 100%. Then, like child who doesn’t learn their lesson, Blizzard INSISTS on a Azerite Gearing system locking BiS gear so you couldn’t deviate from specific traits because they NEVER decided to balance the other traits and combine that with not wanting to get a WEAPON week to just “try” going melee. SO even now, (like myself) who has BiS SV azerite gear (a real gut punch, thanks blizz) and the resell value Azerite Gear, importance of a weekly 475 weapon with the “right” corruption, that EVEN if I wanted to play that stupid spec with all the BiS gear I have for it, I don’t even have a weapon. SO screw that noise…

TL:DR? Survival would be a baby to a parent charged with sudden baby syndrome. I could spend all day and give you REASONS what is going on, but the easiest thing i can do is point you in the direction of the “5%” changes they made to “fix” the problem of all these specs. Their solution was to smear “garbage” on the wall and see if that fixes things.

Throw your hands up and walk away. Save yourself some time.

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287

You’re literally the one who brought up the argument of spec popularity in raids…

Specifically, the comparison between Rogues and Hunters.

Where have we claimed that certain periods of WoD were high points in the games history?

Are you still talking representation/popularity here or have you moved on to something else?

Because contrary to your random nonsense, statistics point to actual data which can be relied on for reference.

Pretty much nothing you’ve stated so far, or any claims of yours can be backed up by anything other than your bias, hostile mind and your hate for…people who disagree with you.

You just can’t help yourself, can you?

It’s like you have a…need…to offend any and everyone who voices an opinion which differs from that of your own.

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Nobody that’s ever taken a course on statistics thinks this.
Flex that pseudointellectualism tho

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I’m going to single out this part in particular because you keep glossing over it and repeating it each time you get countered on it.

Survival was not only popular for one patch in WoD. It was consistently a popular choice in raiding for several years.

I’ve shown you where I got the data I look at. Your insistence that ranged SV was unpopular and that combat rogues were consistently more represented while showing absolutely no data is wearing thin. We have no reason to trust your personal recollection over the data we see.

It is beyond hypocritical to act like we are cherrypicking and misrepresenting statistics when this is how you go about arguing such an objective and factual matter.

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ThE DaTa

Let me spell it out for you; hunters swapped specs based on the fight much more often than rogues historically. Combat was the pve spec most of the time, except for exceptions like HAT sub in Naxx.

You don’t need DaTa to wrap your head around that, you just need to have existed on the raiding scene prior to mop

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well OP if you read most of the SV players posts in the thread you will see why nobody wants to be associated with the spec.

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the amount of cognitive dissonance necessary to think people don’t pick up equal levels of nastiness from your side of the field must be massive

People really out there thinking passive-aggression is somehow morally superior

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I do need data, actually, if I’m going to make any positive claim about spec representation. You might feel you don’t, but there’s a reason the phrase “the plural of anecdote is not data” exists.

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No, you just think you do, because you’ve never taken a collegiate statistics course and don’t understand the folly of your own overly-rigid and hierarchal mode of thought.

Speaking of phrases that exist for a reason? Let’s try two on for size:

" There are three types of lies – lies , damn lies, and statistics
-Benjamin Disraeli

" “Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable."
-Mark Twain

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Listen to Bepples, he is all-knowing and all-wise. He’s been posting in these forums since your friends were telling you about some MMO online called WoW

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im convinced the scabby guy is actually nuts lol

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Last time she showed up on the forums she quickly got banned for repeatedly calling anyone who disagrees with her autistic (still doing it, BTW) and then proceed to rant at me in Discord private messages for a few hours, so you may very well be on to something.

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Pretty intellectually dishonest to pretend you weren’t ranting right back.
Not out of pattern for you.

Watching folks who have been loosing their mind for literally years now about a spec in a video game try to gaslight is a pretty peculiar experience. I don’t call anyone that disagrees with me the big bad A-word; I call people with rigid hierarchal thinking in a fluid environment that, because it’s textbook.
The oversensitive sensibilities of staff don’t change anything except the stakes. It’s not some silent majority that reports people for comments like that, it’s emotionally invested individuals who want to “get even”

Expressing moral outrage doesn’t fool anybody when you’ve established yourself as a proponent of immoral actions, like ostracizing players of a particular spec because you didn’t get your way and believe being rude to them will somehow make the developers pay attention to you. It just further outlines your own deeply flawed personality.

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Not to get off track here, but doesnt blizzard do this intentionally over time…ie make one class overpowered, while stripping down what was a top tier class, nerfing it into dog poo…then doing the whole thing again at some later point?

I know Ive seen a ton of complaints about them trashing a class/spec and someone responding that thats how they do things in the game to shake it up.

If thats the case, arent we arguing pointlessly because even if survival isnt king currently, it very well could be next cycle?

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Survival has had multiple periods where it has been, numerically, the top performing hunter spec since we first saw it in Legion.

How this applies to PvE vs PvP ofc differs a lot. Especially when you look at how useful a spec can possibly be in general, aside from raw numbers.

But yeah, we have historically seen particular specs, or classes even, cycle through periods of having better performance potential and also times where it has been on the lower end.

Whether that is fully intended by the devs or not, maybe, maybe not.

About how far they actually take it in terms of making classes/specs overpowered, I would say no to that. It’s more likely the reason being some oversights in what can potentially affect certain elements/aspects of the design tied to a particular spec and how this affects performance.

Is that all that there is to it? No, most likely not.

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I really don’t know about you or him… I’ve been playing since closed beta vanilla. I normally trump whomever comes along and talks about I’ve been in longer etc etc etc…

The point is, Bepples is usually calm, cool and collected when posted on forums. He normally does a good job being centered as I am a bit more extreme (and toxic) when it comes to Blizzard. “My point” (if I have one is), when I see somebody I don’t recognize arguing with Bepples, there are normally on one of the spectrums of extremes.

^ This isn’t the person I know. We’re not friends, nor do we know each other. I can just tell you that he is a well known vet in the circles I’m around and I’ve been around for quite since the beginning. I usually posted, wrote guides on Allakhazam when it was a thing. I didn’t start religiously coming to the forums till things got out of wack with hunters circa WOD and testing the multishot-blackarrow days. I was helping new hunters take their leaf’s to form a Rhok’delar / Lok’delar when they were 1 then changed into two different things.

I can tell you the direction for PVP for hunter was destroyed and rebuilt since BC. Survival destroyed for PVE and PVP in WOD. Since then, these forums are HIGHLY toxic towards Blizzard since they opened a thread on the level of “we’re listening” to you and want open feedback to a deafening silence.

Since the WOD debacle, I have been openly voicing on how wildly crazy the absence of thought the three specs were in PVP/PVE. ICC was about as close as “balanced” as they were. Running gold DKP runs for people who couldn’t even clear 1 one in ICC for near/full clears.

In the end, I can genuinely find common ground on any complaint with the game and especially when it comes to hunters; but, I will tell you that when it comes to Bepples, he’s usually pretty grounded and centered in his opinions. So through “my own” personal experience, you’re railing against somebody who is considered fairly grounded in his comments.

No. Oversites are sometimes made and usually addressed rather quickly. Mages (who are a Dev played class) won’t suffer long if you notice. They have problems normally with fixing hybird classes; but, hunters have been their whipping boy for some time.

I had to back away from criticizing their balancing of classes… The introduction of corruption, the ranking of those corruptions and how it perverts the game you just have to throw up your hands about. The game is currently garbage and they know they threw a monkey wrench in the game and IMO, maybe on purpose.

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We get it, you’re a boomer whose attachment to talking box celebrity man has extended all the way to “regulars” on video game forums.

Translation: you seek out echo chambers and are surprised to encounter people that aren’t in them.

Bepples is a laughingstock among many known for derailing any thread about survival into a melee vs ranged conversation, known for insulting people that enjoy a spec he no longer does, known for extending his moaning about ranged survival into the survival channel of the discord where he is, for the most part, not really wanted.

The current itteration of survival is literally the peak of the specs design as it relates to pvp. Never before has the interaction between its abilities been so thorough, nor the potential to demonstrate a difference between skillcapped play and skill-floor play so high.
Survival is potentially the only good thing left in terms of pvp balance and design right now in the game.

Maybe don’t pretend to know what you’re talking about with pvp when you’ve been 1500 since arena was introduced to the game.

This game has the worst community of armchair developers around, lol.

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Gen X, but I would expect it matters to somebody is a living meme.

I have no problem giving opposing views. The problem you fail to grasp is the vast majority who don’t frequent the forums and vocalize their opinion. Hence how we have a MSV spec when empirical data shows the lack of people playing MSV.

Subjective with no corresponding data to support it. I mean, you can say that marshmallows taste like chicken when eaten on the surface of Pluto. I can’t argue with you being wrong because there is nothing we can do to really check that side by side.

Lol, you are a new kind of stupid and I appreciate the struggle you’re having to articulate something intellegible; but ok, let’s explore your ignorance…

There is NO Hunter class even represented in the top 100 for 2’s or 3’s. I actually stopped looking after 300+ area for 3s.

I digress. I don’t “feel” (my opinion) that I get anything from pvp anymore and I did more on my rogue in vanilla and BC for PVP. I don’t think it’s skill and more like rock, paper, scissors. The point is I could destroy you with class representation but I have a 2s partner who wants his rank three essence.

After all that is said… If I use your opinion against you, you don’t have a mythic+ score above 264 on your hunter, a 2/12 H progression and I don’t even see a “rating” but you have 50% win history. With a 50% win history you could climb above 2400 rating. You’re not good, all that means is you have the tolerance to do it more.

^ All that means is, according to you, you shouldn’t have an opinion about anything.

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