By this logic, survival is not a melee spec, because the vast majority of its spells are ranged. Way to put your foot out the other side.
“wall of text” does not mean “one uninterrupted block of text without punctuation” exclusively, I’m not sure where you’ve developed this impression.
Wall of text means using an excessive amount of text to say not all that much. Unwarranted verbosity in proper terms.
Wrong again…
I said that a few abilities being usable from afar does not matter in this case.
It’s the same with current SV.
Yeah, I know. Did I say otherwise? No, I didn’t.
Again, yes.
But like I said earlier, this is not something which I am doing.
If you think that a specific reply is too long or, in your opinion, contains unnecessary words then, that’s not my problem. It still does not automatically mean that the term “wall-of-text” applies.
No, it’s the inverse. Only two SV abilities cannot be used from afar.
“Whether it has an ability or two which can be used from afar, does not change the fact it is indeed a melee-spec”
“Whether it has an ability or two that require melee range, does not change the fact that it’s a spec made up primarily of ranged abilities.”
" A wall of text is an excessively long post to a noticeboard or talk page discussion, which can often be so long that some don’t read it"
You can pretend you don’t fit it, but my man, you do. It took you more than half an hour to type one of your posts (I had the tab open and saw you keyboarding away at the bottom of the screen), you are absolutely a textwaller.
Are you as bad about it as Bepples? No. Doesn’t mean you’re not prone to it. Look at your own post history.
By the way, Bepples, it’s not possible to report someone else while you are yourself suspended, so chalk up another point in the “Bepples is categorically dishonest” column.
He is the most fun to play after you play one for awhile of all toons I like my SV, that being said the question was why people do not play one.
Maybe because Warcraft is a combined PVP and PVE environment success in both of these means gear and progress in content.
My experience is that he can put out very high raid damage but it is with specific gear sets and correct rotations. This has only been seen by me since corruption gear has came out with pieces that blow up mastery.
Now on the PVP aspect one thing only that I notice is the guy is made of paper and his leech is horrid… Just my experience but the need to get a few melee hits puts you in range of melee hits and you get destroyed.
Now on paper he may be capable of offense and defense but it is my experience that with the short durations cds for gap closer and the quick refresh on their stuns combined with SV having crap AC you get toasted.
This is a biggie and would possibly OP the SV… Let Kill Command stack mongoose…
Decrease the CD on his stun to 30 sec… I hear talk about how the interrupt on 15 secs is great but I would prefer to keep that and have a 30 sec CD on my stun.
Let the hunter pick the bombs he tosses so when he is low on focus he tosses the right one to get his focus back instead of random bombs.
Trappers net should last a minimum of 7 secs with and increase to range and chance to break under damage but similar to a root.
To me he is on the wire to being well rounded in damage mitigation and damage output kind of like a test version of the finished product…
If the changes in shadowlands are too drastic he wont be fun to play…
This is an idiotic idea. Kill Command is your focus replenishment and it already hits hard. It does not need more incentive to press.
Surv is the tankiest hunter spec when played correctly, which includes knowing when you can get a bandage off, and selecting the right defensive azerite traits and honor talents.
User error. Surv absolutely excels at kiting other melee.
We can already predict what our next two bombs will be based on what our previous bomb was. Try using your thinkysponge.
Why, pray tell, do you think we need another second on net? It’s already one of the strongest CCs in the game against melee.
God, why are all DH players like this…
They are a little less popular than hunters. My main, before I switched to Hunters many years ago was a combat Rogue. That said, there IS AN OUTCRY among Combat rogues asking for it to be brought back. Rightfully. I often use combat Rogues as another example of a spec Blizzard removed from the game.
There is also a lot of heat about what they did to Holy Priests and Warlocks with the prune.
Blizzard needs to take a step back and look at what they did to all of these classes and fix them.
The sad thing is that there had to be somebody in the meetings at Blizzard thinking, “You know. I don’t think these changes are a good idea. Players are going to quit,” and they were too scared to speak up, or worse, they were ignored or fired for doing so. Any time I think about it, it irks me even more.
No there really isn’t, especially on the scale of this
The rogue community has always been better at both theory crafting and adapting to changes. I speculate that’s because hunters are very attractive to Uber-casual pet collectors and the like.
There is an active community of people asking for Combat to come back. I think you’re probably correct regarding the scale of the outcry (still not small), but I don’t buy your reasoning behind it.
It doesn’t make much sense that Uber Casual people would complain the loudest or the longest. It almost sounds like you’re just trying to troll us a little bit with that comment.
The real reason RSV Hunters are so vocal is because Survival Hunters felt they lost more than any other class in the game.
Sure it does. Those who play the least take the longest to adjust to changes.
Survival gained more than it lost in terms of design. Old survival had too many identity issues. It’s telling that all the people who hate melee surv seem to have less than an hours experience of playing it.
But no, there literally isn’t some big contingent of rogues upset about outlaw. There certainly isn’t a presence on the rogue forums of an undergeared toon, a level 10 alt, and a 5’6 champion of azeroth arguing vehemently about how outlaw players are the root of all evil because they took away your precious spec.
That phenomenon is pretty exclusive to the hunter forums, because we have the most fragile class community.
As said in this thread. Seems appropriate to your reply:
The one issue that Outlaw rogue players have… that comes multiple times… isnt going back to old combat rogue… its just not having the rng skill Roll the Bones. To take it away or change it. But thats a talk to be taken in the rogue forums, not here.
There is also the fact that you have people in raids who used to be RSV, and who will refused to invite a MSV. Yes, it’s petty, but it’s going to happen. I’m sure many of the MSV in these forums have experienced this.
Not to be that guy but the rogue forums pretty much hate Sub rogues the same as SV hunters 
js
The whole part about the use of a melee weapon and how it ties into those two offensive attacks, as well as the interrupt, as well as other abilities from talents, and to the “description” of the spec voiced by the devs going into Legion and yes, in BfA as well. All this just escaped you or?
You can argue about how many abilities there are that technically can be used from afar, all you want. It still does not change the fact that SV is currently designed to be a melee-spec.
Is it flexible in it’s design and with how you can use it’s abilities? Yeah, sure.
Still not a ranged spec.
Again, yes.
But fine, show me a post I’ve made here recently where this applies. Because apparently, there are so many of them.
First off, /laugh at you tracking what other players do on the forum.
Second, all posts I made yesterday apart from that last one, were made on my phone. It usually takes a bit of time.
The last post, I made while doing weekly reset stuff in-game so, like you, I had multiple tabs and points of interest open at the same time.
And thirdly, you do know that the logo at the bottom shows you being active even when all you’re doing is having the edit box in focus don’t you? Not just when you’re actively typing stuff.
And…yeah…really? Judging people by how long they take to write a reply on the forum?
Btw
How does that apply to this description of a “wall-of-text”? Which you linked, even though the description in itself isn’t full. Based on what you typed earlier.
It says nothing about how long it takes to write things down…
Agreed.
Yeah, sure…
Not even gonna bother.
Ask me how I know you’re a bland pve guy
I don’t need to cherrypick. All PvE representation statistics we have access to point to Survival consistently being a popular spec before 6.2 and a consistently unpopular spec afterwards. 6.2 is literally the only patch where the data shows SV being an unpopular spec. If you are arguing that SV was usually unpopular when it was ranged it is you who is cherrypicking.
I’m just one person and I don’t even make these threads.
I would have posted a rebuttal to this but you did it for me in the very next paragraph:
Each spec’s lore is post-hoc, full of retconning, niche, and minimal in scope. Huln Highmountain, for example, wasn’t even portrayed as a Hunter at all until Legion. If they can retcon that crap into existence they can retcon away from it. The waste of time and effort from endlessly trying and failing to push a melee Hunter spec for years matters much more than Legion matters that are ever more obsolete and trivial, especially when all the expansion’s content will be entirely optional in Shadowlands.
Point to actual data or GTFO. I couldn’t care less about what your faulty memory tells you. I looked over the representation data and Survival was consistently ahead of Combat with few, brief exceptions outside of 6.2. And yes, Rogues generally have lower representation than Hunters. Actually, not generally: universally. In EVERY patch. Rogues are actually consistently in the bottom 3. Yes, this is raid represenation data and it may magically be different in the open world, but probably not.
There’s nothing immature about saying its unwise to become involved in heated debates in a language you’re not fluent in.
[/quote]
Ghorak speaks perfectly fluent English and has no issues understanding what was being said. He just disagreed with your terminology. I disagree on the exact same basis. So yes, lashing out at him and saying he has a poor grasp of English is immature and only shows that your actual arguments are weak.
Hmm, no, by his logic Survival is definitely still a melee spec because it is designed to focus primarily on the use of melee weapons. You have one single-target melee spell but it contributes a plurality of your damage output and many of the talents, traits, and interactions with other abilities depend on it. No, pointing to the fact that in specific situations in specific areas of the game you end up spending more time in ranged does not change that.
Seems like you’re the one with the bad reading comprehension. I’m sensing a pattern of projection here.
In Ghorak’s case it ain’t excessive nor is it unwarranted.
Or I could have used some crazy workaround like, I dunno, reporting them after my suspension lapses? Crazy, I know.
Um, no. People who play more develop a greater affinity and sense of attachment to a playstyle.
Also, you seem very unable to understand that being able to adjust to a change is not the same as liking a change.
This is peak projection. Survival has never in its history had a more nonsense, ill-defined, and convoluted identity as it does right now. It’s worst identity issue when it was ranged was basically Black Arrow not fitting particularly well with the rest of the spec thematically. Now, you have different identities pulling in different directions.
On one hand it’s trying to be a Beast Master ripoff, going so far as to literally have a modified version of BM’s signature ability, a derivative of BM’s iconic offensive cooldown, and a passive that had belonged to BM as recently as last expansion. On the other hand, it is trying to be some sort of utilitarian munitions expert with a poison arrow and a grenade. Then on top of that just throw in some token generic melee skirmisher abilities just to be quirky and unique.
So you have this “companion of beasts”, which is totally not just a derivative of BM’s core identity and worthy of a completely different spec, fighting with the pet with a couple abilities virtually pulled straight from BM, while also madly swinging a 2-handed weapon around that sometimes can shoot ghostly owls from afar, while also stopping that and lobbing grenades at its feet (and the pet, mind you) while conjuring up a sidearm crossbow out of nowhere to shoot a poisoned arrow before putting it away and going back to swinging an axe around.
It honest-to-god looks like a parody of a Hunter. Anyone who can with all sincerity convince themselves that this is an improvement on Survival’s identity v.s. any other iteration of any Hunter spec is irrecoverably delusional. Like, if you have managed to warp reality so much that this unmitigated mess of a spec has a coherent identity, let alone one favourably comparable to its prior iterations, there is no helping you. Lastly, there are no words to describe the hypocrisy of anyone who still argues that ranged Survival was “too similar to Marksmanship” or whatever in defence of a spec that literally copies the signature ability itself from another Hunter spec.
It’s the worst in this community because our class got the worst of Legion’s garbage-tier class design. That’s not to say we were the only ones that got screwed, but our class was changed the most out of everyone and it was very evident that whoever was in charge had not the slightest clue what they were doing and why people liked the class.
so was pol pot
are you actually trying to deny that you’ve dedicated an INORDINATE amount of time to moaning about this for what is now multiple years on end?
Do you think anyone will believe that denial credible?
oof
If the only data you pay attention to is raid data, irrespective of the fact that the popularity of raiding has tanked along with the global population of the game, then you’re by definition cherry picking data.
I think the fact that so many of you RSV die-hards seem to remember periods of WoD as a high point in the games history is incredibly hilarious. Of course you don’t remember how universal the combat rogue used to be.
I can’t take a self-proclaimed raider seriously that believes hunters were more important to raid teams historically than a good rogue, considering the literal decade long span of cloak of shadows mechanical dominance.
No, it’s not a new phenomenon. The hunter forum has consistently been one of the whiniest for as long as I’ve been posting on the forums- about 12 or 13 years now. It’s always been a bastion of pretty inaccurate information as well, because our class appeals the most to extremely casual players who are most likely to both have and spread inaccurate information.
The tale of the completely ignorant but self-confident BM hunter is a tale as old as time and the origin of our dreaded nickname.
Just so I am clear, we can’t use actual raid data numbers, because raiding has tanked (got a source on that?). Presuambly we also can’t use any PvP data, since that is not as popular as PvE (I wouldn’t want to cherry pick any data). So we are back to Melee SV is popular just because, with no proof.
Is there anything that you would accept? How about the offical words of Blizzard?
From Ion (GamesCon Interview, http s://warcraft. blizzplanet. com/blog/comments/gamescom-2017-world-warcraft-legion-patch-7-3-interview/2))
“We knew with Survival Hunter that we were making a niche spec. It is a melee spec for a class that has traditionally being range. I think that a lot of existing hunters, they are all hunters because they want to be a range class, and so we don’t necessarily expect them or want them to feel like they should be changing; but for new players picking up that class, it is an intriguing option; and we have seen a lot of Survival Hunters doing extremely well at very high levels of play. So the fact that they are not playing as often, I don’t think reflects upon their potential so much as it just does where the audience is at right now. That’s not much of a problem.”
What do you think Ion means by “high levels of play”?? Raiding, World Quests, PvP? I assume he means raiding when he says “high levels of play”. If that is the case, the raiding numbers show that the audience hasn’t changed much since that interview.
No, I remeber WotLK through the patch in WoD that made SV unviable as the high point. You know, when Hunters were fun. Personally - I loved Cata & MoP SV the best.
GoT a SoUrCe FoR ThAt never gets old, why are middling PVE players always so obsessed with statistics?
They’re rarely qualified to actually handle them. Stats must be interpreted to have any purpose.
Raiding is less popular than it used to be because M+ exists as an alternative gearing platform. World content is also considerably more engaging than it used to be. Giving people other outlets to play in tends to reduce the number of people actively raiding. Duh?
It’s not controversial to say raiding is less popular than it once was, the game is less popular than it once was. Raiding isn’t the end-game behemoth it once was, like at its peak in Wrath when nearly everyone raided, despite being years before the invention of LFR.
He’s referring to both high-end PVE where a spec like surv might be advantageous for a specific fight (melee surv would have worked well for spine of deathwing back in the day for example, if we were to transport it back through time) and to high-end PVP where it’s the only real hunter spec in play.
This is like the fourth time this has been said, by both you and Azagood (apologies if I misspelled your name).
I won’t lie, this makes me roll my eyes. If you two insist on this absurd standard, then this means we — all of us, including you — are immediately significantly limited in the topics to discuss.
Last I checked, there’s nothing wrong with — and indeed, quite worthwhile — to discuss the different possible interpretations of the data that we do have.
Frankly, I’ve been disappointed every time the existing data we do have gets brought up and you (I use the term generally) immediately shoots it down without even attempting to offer or discuss different possible interpretations.
C’mon. That’s just disappointing and lame.
Allowing everything to be brought to the table challenges every single of us, thus forcing us to consider these arguments and angles. We’re made to step up our debates.
How could that ever be a bad thing? Hint: it can’t.
By shutting down those specific bits of points, arguments, and evidence, you’re doing yourself no favor. You’ve made yourself weaker by refusing to practice your debate.
I know you’re going to belittle me and find a fault with what I just posted. That’s OK, because I’ll use it to help me see my flaws and improve my skills for the next time.
That’s what it’s all about, after all. 
And NOW, to the rest of your post.
I’ll concede to your point regarding mythics being more popular than raiding. But surely can’t raiding still be used to get a loose sense of the playerbase’s preferences? If not, why not?
Everything I’ve read on MMO Champion and Icy Veins have led me to believe that raiding parses serve as a decent snapshot of the playerbase’s preferences. I would like to hear your reasoning as to why it isn’t.