Why Stormheim didn't work as an excuse to start the war

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Is “I was just following orders” an acceptable excuse now? It doesn’t even apply to Sylvanas, who was eager to take Gilneas after she came back from being dead, so she was more than just doing things because Garrosh forced her to.

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from other than conflating chronicles saying that Sylvanas was interested in that land into Sylvanas wanted to start that war. Garrosh still started the war, Garrosh was still planning on using the Forsaken as a sacrificial charge to maybe weaken the alliance defense before the troops he cared about attacked.

Sylvanas took over the invasion to protect her people from Garrosh.

If the Forsaken never bring it up in the story it’s not actually a canon motivation for the Forsaken or Sylvanas attacking Gilneas.

Tarrok:

Well, yeah, since the story seems to be predominately be written for the Alliance players benefit they tend to ignore or whitewash any misdeeds alliance figures did in the past.

Which is not the same as caring about them, it just means she’s decided to be less wasteful of them. My point still stand that Edge of Night and its depiction of the attack on Gilneas the first big exploration of the idea that Sylvanas never cared about the Forsaken.

And I get the opposite opinion, maybe you just have a strong opinion of the character and that’s flavoring the way you read that story in a way different from how I read it.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I’m not sure where you’re getting this from other than conflating chronicles saying that Sylvanas was interested in that land into Sylvanas wanted to start that war. Garrosh still started the war, Garrosh was still planning on using the Forsaken as a sacrificial charge to maybe weaken the alliance defense before the troops he cared about attacked.

Sylvanas took over the invasion to protect her people from Garrosh.

While you can nitpick the technicalities of my wording, it changes neither that Sylvanas was eager to attack Gilneas nor that you hold a double standard that Sylvanas’ assassination attempt on Genn in an unprovoked attack on Gilneas is okay.

Well, yeah, since the story seems to be predominately be written for the Alliance players benefit they tend to ignore or whitewash any misdeeds alliance figures did in the past.

Which doesn’t lessen anything wrong that the Horde does. Whataboutism in this case is just to move conversation away from acknowledging the Horde’s wrongdoings.

And I get the opposite opinion, maybe you just have a strong opinion of the character and that’s flavoring the way you read that story in a way different from how I read it.

Whatever flavoring you want to read it with does not change the fact that this was the first time where Sylvanas was written as admitting she did not care about the Forsaken other than as a means to get revenge on Arthas. This was when they started writing her this way.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

While you can nitpick the technicalities of my wording, it changes neither that Sylvanas was eager to attack Gilneas nor that you hold a double standard that Sylvanas’ assassination attempt on Genn in an unprovoked attack on Gilneas is okay.

What game are you playing?
Sylvanas’s assasssination attempt on Genn? I’m assuming you’re talking about when Liam died. Which you know, happened when the Gilneans managed to corner Sylvanas and attack her and then well, they weren’t good enough.

And no, she had eyes on the land. That’s different than saying she was ready to attack. Garrosh forced the attack and was using it to kill off her people. Maybe she would have attacked at a later date, but when she lead the forsaken there it was because Garrosh started the war and was going to basically wipe out the Forsaken (You know, the whole section in Edge of Night where she sees the future and forsaken killing themselves in bonfires before the Alliance can get to them?)

Which doesn’t lessen anything wrong that the Horde does. Whataboutism in this case is just to move conversation away from acknowledging the Horde’s wrongdoings.

So the whataboutism to distract from Genn’s boneheaded decision to start a war in the middle of a legion invasion is the important point, and don’t whatabout away from that?

Whatever flavoring you want to read it with does not change the fact that this was the first time where Sylvanas was written as admitting she did not care about the Forsaken other than as a means to get revenge on Arthas. This was when they started writing her this way.

In the middle of the story right before she seems to have a change of heart. Like how nothing can change the fact that Ebeneezer Scrooge hates Christmas.

[Ollanu-dalaran]

To be honest it seems equally boneheaded to randomly head off on a secret mission just after geting seated as warchief to do something only tangentially at best to stoping the legion. It is about as stupid as randomly trying to kill her while while she is leading a faction during the demon invasion.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

I’m assuming you’re talking about when Liam died.

The very case:

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Let's see how brave Gilneas gets on without its stubborn leader!
Prince Liam Greymane yells: FATHER!!!
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Such a waste. That arrow's poison was not meant to be wasted on your whelp. We will meet again!

You seem to have the double standard that Sylvanas and the Horde were okay attacking Gilneas and leading to this.

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

So the whataboutism to distract from Genn’s boneheaded decision to start a war in the middle of a legion invasion is the important point, and don’t whatabout away from that?

You may want to look through the thread. Try Post #21. I don’t try to hide Genn’s wrongdoings like you do.

@Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood

In the middle of the story right before she seems to have a change of heart. Like how nothing can change the fact that Ebeneezer Scrooge hates Christmas.

A change of heart being that Sylvanas didn’t want to stay where Arthas ended up, and instead of passing out turkey dinners, Sylvanas blights her own soldiers at Lordaeron and justifies abandoning Lordaeron because she’s seen the afterlife.

Garona even says that Sylvanas still uses the phrase arrows in her quiver after she raises Derek Proudmoore, a call back to none other than this first time of her being written this way.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

@Amadis-draka

The very case:

Ahem.

Run to Greymane square, where Sylvanas and some elite banshees await. Sylvanas has 27,600 HP.

King Genn Greymane yells: Block their retreat, Liam! We’ve got them right where we want them!

King Genn Greymane yells: SYLVANAS!!

Genn heroic leaps at her. Clear the trash around her and the two banshees, then focus on Sylvanas. Once she gets down to 25% health, she’ll do a massive knockback and stun everybody (Banshee Queen’s Wail).

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Enough!

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner yells: Let’s see how brave Gilneas gets on without its stubborn leader!

Prince Liam Greymane yells: FATHER!!!

Liam jumps in front of the bowshot, protecting his father from certain doom.

Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: Such a waste. That arrow’s poison was not meant to be wasted on your whelp. We will meet again!

Yep, totally Sylvanas is the one who went out to try and kill Genn there.

@Amadis-draka

You seem to have the double standard that Sylvanas and the Horde were okay attacking Gilneas and leading to this.

You just seem to have a need to put all the blame on Sylvanas no matter what. She started Garrosh’s war, she tried to assassinate Genn when they ambushed her, etc.

@Amadis-draka

I don’t try to hide Genn’s wrongdoings like you do.

So then why keep at me when I’m just illustrating why saying Genn was in the right for Stormheim because whatabout Gilneas doesn’t work?

@Amadis-draka

Sylvanas blights her own soldiers at Lordaeron

And at Lordaeron is where someone started smoking crack when writing Sylvanas.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I’m just illustrating why saying Genn was in the right for Stormheim

Wait. You think Genn was right for Stormheim?

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Sylvanas’ attempt to kill them all was unsuccessful, so it’s okay

Did you mean this was okay?

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

Yes, but Mernna’s idea was written on the idea that Genn was not reprimanded by Anduin, when he was.

Given that it was private, Sylvannas’s observation and Saurfang’s reaction to that is still one hundred percent kosher. A public reprimand would have been seriously humiliating to Greymane.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

No, I was asking if you thought that the Gilneans evacuating the city in time made Sylvanas’ intention to plague them all okay.

I was asking for clarification on if you thought Genn’s attack on Sylvanas at Stormheim was right, because then I would be wrong in accusing you of having a double standard.

My accusation comes from the idea that you may think that Sylvanas’ unprovoked attack on the Gilneans was okay but Genn’s unprovoked attack on Sylvanas was not.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

In the context of Mernna’s opening post it was a what if situation of Genn protesting Anduin reprimanding him, but Anduin did reprimand Genn, so the whatif posed doesn’t even follow through.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Sylvanas did not attack Gilneas, she took over an invasion already in progress that had been started by Garrosh, in order to save her people.

And if you read the whole sentence, I think it’s clear that I don’t think that bringing up Gilneas does anything to justify Genn’s actions.

saying Genn was in the right for Stormheim because whatabout Gilneas doesn’t work?

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Sylvanas did not attack Gilneas

… Leading an invasion force, regardless of the reasoning, is still attacking.

I have no idea why you think this is a point to base the rest of your thoughts off of.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

It’s better than twisting chronicles to try and make it look like she’s the one who actually ordered the invasion instead of just limiting the damage Garrosh’s brilliance would cause to the Horde.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I understand this sentence now:

So then why keep at me when I’m just illustrating why saying Genn was in the right for Stormheim because whatabout Gilneas doesn’t work?

I keep at you because you try to cover up Sylvanas’ wrongdoings in the process.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Nah, I just try to keep the conversation on things she actually did, and not the things you imagined she did because she’s EVIL!

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

No you don’t. You literally just said she didn’t attack Gilneas, which is the least factual statement possible.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

Which defiinition of attack, fine, she was leading troops in combat against Gilneas, so that is a definition of attack.

The definition that includes initiating the combat she wasn’t. That was Garrosh, he’s the one who ordered the invasion, or attack, on Gilneas, and lead it up until the point Sylvanas came back and told him if he was going to have her people fight then she was going to lead them.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Which does not make anything she did in Gilneas alright. Once again, since when was "I was just following orders” an acceptable excuse now? Especially when she can’t even claim that, since she broke orders on top of everything else.

[Tarrok-thorium-brotherhood (Tarrok)]

I dunno, I’d say now that I looked it up the whole outrage over Liam is laughable.
“Well of course he deserves his revenge, she killed his son instead of rolling over and dying when they ambushed her!”