It’ll be okay. <3
its a counter cuz when you mixed the fel fire with a void debuff you bombed the raid.
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Thank you!
Xhul’horac. Famous for quotes such as:
“I cannot remain… I am becoming… EVERYTHING! NOTHING!”
“I TEAR APART! AND WITH ME, YOU TOO SHALL DIE!”
And, according to Wowpedia, unused quotes such as:
“I CANNOT CONTAIN!”
“IT OVERWHELMS ME!”
But sure, we can totally mix fel and void without a problem.
Nobody ever said it was impossible to be a demon hunter and not be part of the Illidari. The specific point of contention was about the existence of a canonic elven DH organization outside of the Illidari. Hence why I said:
Because a single person by themselves is not an organization.
Malevolence, S’theno, Gaardoun and countless naga and broken who laid down their lives so we could push the cause forward would like to have a word with you.
Well luckily for those of us who do consider lore to be important to an RPG, Blizzard has given us every indication that they agree. They have flat out stated that certain race/class combos don’t make sense such as Tauren Rogue.
I’m quite confident, given this and the fact that class/race restrictions have existed for all of WoW’s existence, when I say that they will never open up every race/class combo.
They did. His name was Xhul’horac.
As we fought him, he writhed in agony as the infusion of malignant cosmic energies tore him apart. The idea that fel and void don’t mix was an important enough concept that it made it’s way into an entire boss mechanic. If you mixed void and fel, you blew up your team.
If you don’t understand how this provides an active contradiction to the idea that void elves can infuse themselves with fel energy and be ok then I don’t know what else to tell you.
Yikes.
“Hey Bob. We’ve designed this game universe where, whenever anybody does math, 1 + 1 = 2. But this one guy wants to play a character where, whenever he does math, 1 + 1 = 4. How do we accommodate him?”
“Well just invent new lore. Duhh”
“Great idea, Bob!”
You might not understand it, but this is, in fact, the argument you are making when you say things like that.
Look man, I don’t mean any antagonism towards you or anyone else in this thread really. But when we, who do care about the lore and respect the boundaries that it provides hear people like you come in and claim that lore can just be disregarded by dreaming up new lore, even if it does contradict existing lore… it’s frustrating. I have neither the time nor patience to explain the value of consistency in storytelling in depth to you. You can take any 4th grade writing class out there and learn that for yourself. If you don’t care about it, just say so. But people who think this way genuinely do not belong within sniffing distance of a decision-making process involving a story-driven game.
It sounds like you would be much happier playing on a private server. One where you can play a mechagnome druid who spams frostbolt to your heart’s content. Because they’re not going to open up every race/class combo. I can’t prove it, but I am quite confident when I say it.
If I’m coming at you or anyone else too hard right now, then I do apologize. Antagonism isn’t my aim.
But lore is important to an RPG.
And I’m happy to fight anyone who says otherwise.
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Yas Queen you fight em
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I mean someone has to stand up and say “No! Get outta here!” to these other elves. We already let blood elves into the clubhouse and look what they went and gave us? Varedis.
“Oh waaah. I got killed by a bunch of level 70’s cause they tore up my fel diary. iT’s tHe iLliDaRi’S fAuLt”.
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If you will, clarify your position.
Are you saying there’s no logical reason that Void Elves couldn’t become Demon Hunters, cast from the same or very similar mold that produces the Night Elf and Blood Elf Demon Hunters, as we now have them?
I thought I had my earlier statements right, I accept your corrections, as you seem have a way deeper knowledge of the Lore. But…
Void Elves, aren’t they cerebral types, the original members studying the Void? Intellectuals? Or not, but still a sub-group of Elven-Kind.
Where’s the Trauma? Every DH like me, be they Belf or Nelf, has under -gone an incredible amount of trauma. The Burning Legion destroyed our world, all we had left was our lives. Alive, but not sane, we took Fel into us, hoping to become strong, more able to fight, if we survived. The trauma made us hate, our hate gave us the strength to survive the fel, then and now. We sacrificed everything, what have they given? Somewhere in the back-story, there’s got to be big time trauma. Becoming a DH as an intellectual exercise? doesn’t seem believable.
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Happy to clarify.
I’m saying that there are good reasons why void elves should not be capable of becoming demon hunters.
Trauma is definitely still there. The Void Elves were part of the High Elves, who had their homeland decimated by the Scourge - which at the time, was a tool of the Burning Legion. There’s complete possibility for trauma for a Void Elf.
But canonically, from a history standpoint, that specific elf would have likely gone to seek Illidan out and walk the demon hunter path. Instead, this elf (by nature of the fact that we’re considering Void Elf DH as a possible option) went off to study the void to then become a Void Elf.
Different planets. Different story. Same time period. It’s part of why VDH wasn’t a possible combo when Void Elves were released. So if we ever were to get VDH for some reason, they couldn’t be a retroactively Illidari DH. They would need to be newly trained.
This, I agree with. It’s why I keep banging the drum about the DH death rate being so high.
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Honestly, this makes me want it even more. For a company that purportedly loves lore, meaningful choices, heavy storylines, etc…I’d love to see this explored thematically. >_>
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Remember how they retconned illidan to be a good guy
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they did it was a boss in hell fire citadel when you mixed fel fire and void pools you blew up
if your tank had the void debuff and than took the fel debuff he blew up. this was explored in a boss where, when fel and void mixed it ended in a big explosion.
Exactly. Proof of a weak will. I doubt a void elf would be swayed by the whispers of a demon when they can handle the void. In the canon, according to the demon hunters themselves, the fel energies do not affect their personality or allegiance. Of course, everyone else doubts that. Being swayed by their own greed and lust for power is another matter.
It’s not head canon. Everything I’ve stated comes from the lore. As for the benefit, more player options is fairly beneficial I would say.
Dark Embrace
The same reason we don’t still have only 8 races. The game is not a static thing, and the entire point of this thread is adding things to the game. The void elves as a whole were entirely unknown until recently, it would be no surprise to find out void elf demon hunters are around somewhere. My point is not they “do exist” but they “could exist” according to established lore.
Why would you assume that because a reason currently does not exist that we know of, there couldn’t be reasons we don’t know of or reasons in the past?
When the void elves were exiled from silvermoon, the Burning Legion was very much still a threat, and part of the reason the void elves existed in the first place. We could also look at another angle, a blood elf demon hunter absorbs a void aligned demon and gets “infected” with void energy, and goes to alleria to learn how to control the void, joining the void elves.
I don’t really care about the lore side though, from a gameplay perspective anything that increases player enjoyment and options is a good thing in my opinion.
If you need a precedent just look at the sunwalkers. Players wanted more racial combination choices for paladins, and blizz fit it into the lore. Previously there wasn’t any support for holy cows.
Demons are literally already formed from a mix of light and void energies and there are precedents to entities existing with a mixture of void and fel. (Xul’horac).
There are many instances of two things that usually do not get along that manage to be combined when you know how to do it. Energies can be explosive and they can also be harnessed. Look at nuclear power for a real world example. You can make a bomb that annihilates cities or a plant that powers cities.
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Let’s give them the full quote, shall we?
You’re borrowing that quote from the Wowpedia page on Demon Hunters which borrows information from page 48 of the Alliance Player’s Guide - which is a tabletop RPG guide written back in 2006.
The full quote is: “By the time the demon hunter reaches the pinnacle of her development, she is a twisted and dark version of her former self — though the chaotic energy in her body does not affect her personality and allegiance (or so the demon hunters claim), it wreaks great changes on her physical form.”
Tabletop RPGs do what they can to teach a person how someone might roleplay their character. “What? No! Just because I use evil magic doesn’t mean I’m evil. I’m not going to betray our party and steal all the loot.”
This does not serve in the slightest to cancel the many examples of demon hunters succumbing to their darker impulses, surrendering to their inner demon, or just flat out turning traitor. Which there are a ton of examples for.
Fel energies absolutely can and often do change people’s personalities and/or allegiances. It’s dishonest to use this quote the way you’re trying to use it.
Which has not been demonstrated to be an organization in the slightest. “Herald of the Dark Embrace” can be a reference to something metaphysical.
Plus, when Telarius pops metamorphosis he states: “The shadows will consume you. You are not prepared to face the void.”
Void. Dark Embrace.
Sounds to me like he’s calling himself the “Herald of the End when the Void consumes everything”
And like I said:
And before we start going “But wait! See! He’s a demon hunter who serves the void!” No. Saying “Despair, the void’s going to kill us all and there’s nothing we can do”, does not make you a servant of the void. Or infused with it at all.
Because it begs the question: “Why did this particular elf not go along with the rest of the blood elves who went to join Illidan’s army?”
But accomplishing that result requires, like I said, us to ignore the established lore that contradicts the idea that you can mix fel and void and be ok.
It isn’t whether or not you can invalidate this contradiction. It’s whether or not you should.
I don’t really think this would work either. A voidwalker, for example, doesn’t leave behind blood or a heart to drink/eat for the initial demon bonding ritual. What else is there, void terrors? They’re kind of a weird gray area between demon and void aberration - I think they’re likely one of the first demon’s created in the fusion of Light and Void.
They’ve been seen to serve both the Void and the Burning Legion so it would likely depend on which one you tried to consume. If you consumed one allied with the Legion? Fel infusion. A Void aligned one? Void infusion. You probably don’t get both.
Adding Sunwalkers to the game didn’t require invalidating existing lore. We’ve been over this already.
You still aren’t addressing the biggest problem with VDH.
You are asking for a choice that is godmode.
Are you aware that Alleria and Turalyon can’t even touch most of the time? They’re lovers and they can’t even touch. That’s the importance of magic in WoW having consequences. And it’s merely one example.
Sigh. Alright then. At least you’re being honest about that.
I repeat. It isn’t that they can’t just retcon their lore to make this possible. It’s that doing so is an unhealthy choice for the lore of the game. And all for the ability to play a darker skinned blood elf on the blue team. 
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Please forgive my lack of quoting - it seems to be not working well for me right now. I’m not saying that lore should go away. I am stating, however, that a distinct line seems to be drawn in the sand which disallows the development of the Demon Hunters simply because the founder of the order is no longer recruiting. I mean… it’s like I said - DH’s have only 2 specs, and for some reason are being told that not only can they only pick from one race now, but ever! I see that your personal opinion is that they should be allowed other, unmentioned races, but I have seen similar reasonings to disallow all others: “They weren’t there”; “They didn’t work when they tried it”. The bottom line is a simple question: Will DH’s be able to enjoy the excitement of learning that a new allied race is being discovered, or do we simply say “Oh, that’s nice for you - too bad I can’t ever play it.”
I was referring to the possibility of recruiting and training more DH’s more than the mixing of void and fel itself. As far as the energies are concerned, I would say that ripping your eyes out and undergoing the DH ritual is quite akin to the way Xhul’horac sounded. Maybe it wasn’t the mixing of the two, so much as the fel alone that drove him to madness. Still… there’s no denying that the two are opposing forces, and I would never presume to state otherwise.
As far as the Lightforged - Yes, of course they can die. That doesn’t mean that if they are raised as a DK, they would retain their ties and abilities relating to the Light.
What I am stating is that player agency does, in fact, matter. I would personally go so far as to say that it matters more than the Lore itself! (Blasphemy, I know), but we literally have aliens falling from the sky just to introduce a new race. And let’s be honest, there are some really thinly-veiled attempts at lore for some of the allied races, but honestly: Why not? The lore is great, but why not play the race you want? And you’re right - I see no reason why a Draenei can be a Druid, but a LIghtforged cannot. Would it lose the class identity to allow a player to play the race they want to be? No, of course not. Would the game break - or the lore be left meaningless? Of course not.
So… I fear that when every time someone asks if DH’s can have… a race… a spec… anything, really, many people seem to come out of the woodwork and say that no, it wouldn’t make sense - be happy with what you have. If this is to be my main, I would like to be able to continue to enjoy playing them. I would like to be able to get excited at new announcements, I would like to actually be able to play around with different playstyles - just like every other WoW player can. It is only the DH who is limited in this way. And frankly, for a game (yes, a game), it is unacceptable to expect that type of imbalance to be put to rest as permanent. When the class was new, it was fine - people expected it to be developed, but as time passes, expansions have come and gone to no avail.
In summary: I want to play a DH. I shouldn’t have to play another class to get the same gameplay quality as other classes. I should have the same prospect of future content being relevant as other classes. I would hope you would agree with this.
edits: attempt at quoting, removing quoting, adding summary, and typo
(begin sarcasm)
Absolutely. Just imagine what would happen? We would have people playing in all sorts of ways. I mean… Someone mentioned how a Tauren Rogue is absolutely ridiculous. I mean, there is no way that a hero who could save the entire world several times over could ever learn the basic skills equivalent to a lv. 1 rogue. I mean, that’s why the tabletop RP that WoW is built on would never allow such heresy! I would hate to have to play in a world where people could work hard to become what they wanted - What madness could possibly lead that tauren to ever want to become a rogue? What makes them think they could ever accomplish it? If there’s anything we learned from life, it’s that racial inequality should be embraced, and that certain races are just better than others at doing certain things. This, and this alone, is the only reason that members of a certain race couldn’t learn a new trade. And we should just get used to that already. Yeah… hopefully those who make decisions never have the idea of racial equality.
(end sarcasm)
-This post was not intended to offend anyone. It was simply to bring to light the absurdity of saying that certain races could never be certain classes - no matter how hard they try.
edit: Honestly, I really don’t mean to offend. I even seriously considered just deleting this post. But at the same time, I stand with the idea behind this post. I honestly don’t believe that the fact that a race might tend a certain way and calling it lore, then using that as a reason to say they can’t do something else - just feels… wrong somehow. Please don’t think that I’m saying your opinions are invalid - they are opinions after all. But at the same time, I think more people should be asking “why not” rather than “why would you”.
That someone was Blizzard Entertainment.
I brought it up, but they make statements about which race/class combinations they think do and don’t make sense all the time. We can extrapolate from this that they fully intend to keep certain restrictions on which races can be which classes for the rest of WoW’s lifespan.
Yiiiiiiiiiiiiikkess. Let’s keep that can of worms shut, shall we? We’re all playing a video game with a story based on racially divided war. This, btw, is a concept used in a ton of different fantasy mediums.
No, your point is totally fair. But, as the thread title says, we are dealing with the question “why not?”. And the reason has always been this: in order to do it, you have to bend existing lore in a way that is unhealthy for the story of the game. Among other things, they have established a contradiction between mixing fel and void in a single mortal being.
At the end of the day, WoW is a story-driven game. This has never been a question of whether or not Blizzard can or can’t do it. It’s always been a question of whether or not they should. Consistency in storytelling is something that every good author strives to maintain in their works. Undermining it to appease a small group of people who aren’t happy that you can’t play one specific race/class combo is something Blizzard has demonstrated that they believe isn’t a good idea.
It is entirely possible (for headcannon purposes) to dream up a Tauren who was so dedicated to being a Rogue that he trained at it every single day. He learned how to make his hooves not go CLOMP CLOMP CLOMP whenever he snuck to a target. He made sure his horns never bumped into anything inside of stealth. He learned how to shift his bulk in such a way that he could move effortlessly towards his targets. And he does it. The crazy son-of-a-bull actually makes himself into a Tauren Rogue.
While this makes for a compelling story, it doesn’t make for a good recipe for a class discipline for the Tauren race.
We’ve addressed how this isn’t a contradiction already.
Look, I’m sorry, but this problem isn’t new. This is no different from someone who says that they want to play Warlock, but can’t get any enjoyment out of the game because Blizzard won’t open up the class to Draenei. Those particular people have been left out in the cold by Blizzard for the last 13 years. And that isn’t going to change anytime soon.
If you really can’t enjoy the game because of a certain class/race restriction, then I genuinely mean it when I say that you would probably be happier on a private server where you can do any race/class combo. I seriously don’t mean this as some sort of backhanded comment. I say it because if you’re waiting for them to open up every race/class combo, you’re going to be unhappy for a very long time.
(Stares in Spanish Inquisition)
Just to clarify - Which is the issue here: That you wouldn’t want to play that combination yourself, or that you don’t want others to be able to play it?
We don’t need something to be a “good recipe for a class discipline”. We are playing paragons. Realistically, in lore, how many heroes took down Deathwing? 10-25, maybe… out of all of Azeroth! So, we’re not playing the whole race - we’re playing the edge cases. Why not allow a player to have a “compelling story”?
And… I’m not just referring to playing a specific race. I’m referring to the fact that any allied race we come across (a feature that has been expounded upon by Blizzard as a gameplay reward), will all categorically be denied from the DH on the basis that they never met its founder. So… please correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t it be a little unfortunate to release new features, like allied races, that every class can partake in to some degree… except one.
Neither.
It’s not about what I want me to be able to play and I (and I believe I can reasonably speak for Elfanger when I say this) have no vendetta against other people such that I don’t want others to be able to do something.
The disagreement is with the health of the lore.
It’s not about you or me. It’s about the story
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I’ve typed out enough book reports on this thread by now that my position should be abundantly clear. I am answering the question posed in the premise of this thread: “why not void elves?”. I’m explaining all the reasons why that individual race/class combo doesn’t make sense.
Instead of looking at this as me having some mean-spirited agenda against people having fun, please just read what I write. I’m genuinely not trying to browbeat people. I’m trying to teach people.
Absolutely this. Thank you.
You mean you might not need something to be a good recipe for a class discipline. Blizzard arguably doesn’t agree.
I’m not sure where you’re going with this. Are you saying that just because Blizzard added allied races as a feature that that automatically means they ought to allow allied races to just be whatever people want?
I could go down the list and explain what my thoughts are on each allied race being allowed to be a DH or not if you’d like. But the ultimate point is that class/race combinations have to be substantiated with more than just people saying “I wanna”. They have to be a result of the game’s lore. This part isn’t just my opinion. It’s a trend that we’ve seen with class/race combinations for all of WoW’s existence.
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Please don’t take one of my sentences out of context. I said that not every class/race combo needs to be applicable to all members of said race - just to its mighty, world-saving heroes. There is a clear distinction there.
I apologize that I was not speaking specifically to the OP’s point of that one specific pairing - the thread had evolved. In fact, I think this is where we might have butted heads - I am not arguing the mixing of energies, so much as it makes me question the future prospects of the class. It seems like we both had good points - to different questions.
As to your point about going down the list, I had rather hoped that you would have seen that to its conclusion, so here where I was going with that, and the only point I’m really hoping to make at all:
What potential allied race down the line would allow DH? My point is that with such a limited scope of who/what would have access/motive, I can’t think of a single one - certainly not enough to create a semblance of equality with the other classes.