Which ones don’t? Doesn’t every class have a tallent tree? Don’t all porfessions allow you to advance?
So, you have pointed out zero gear progression systems for all players. It is forced group content or you are at a dead end.
Its not that good an expansion that’s why I’d guess. its not bad but its far from the best of wow.
I started out this expansion with gear in the 200s. Now my gear is in the mid 300s. How is that not gear progression?
Much as I hate to say it, the lack of a new progression system may be why. Borrowed power sucks massively, but there is an appeal to having a power system to grind.
Talents were 100% the right call, but there’s no progression beyond 70. That’s not a fault, mind you, it simply means that it can’t fully replace progression systems.
All that said, what does an acceptable progression system look like?
- Problem: Borrowing 1 ability for an expansion feels bad, because you then lose it.
- Solution: put it in the talent tree once the expansion is over.
- Problem: infinite grinds with catchup mechanisms cause burnout, only to devalue that effort later due to a necessary change which allow those who didn’t start on day 1 to actually compete.
- Solution: Make the grind less impactful. Diablo 3’s paragon system gave massive benefit for those who played all the time in 4man groups, but that doesn’t mean it’s how WoW would do it. Simply giving +5 main stat per level, and for that level to steadily rise to 50 or 100 would be something worth checking out.
- Problem: RNG drops like legendaries in Legion (at the start) are simply unfair and a poor way to measure progression.
- Solution: Do what you did with professions and Spark of Ingenuity, but make it weekly and have more requirements.
I dno, some of this seems like common sense to me, and others have already been done to a degree. Problem is, the doesn’t seem to be a philosophy from the start regarding them. “We’ll give them X and make sure it gets into the talent tree” ends up being an afterthought, and disallows devs from giving us something ‘borrowed’ since they want to move away from that.
- It’s not borrowed if you give it back to us in talents.
- It’s not a helpless catchup if it’s a few primary stats.
- It’s not unfair luck if you are guaranteed X for Y effort, even if it’s just 1 item that you need to choose carefully. No, I don’t mean like Torghast legendaries…uhg.
Anyways, throwing ideas to the wind as usual. Whatever.
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i think the only people that thought borrowed power sucked are those that just want to get to endgame content as fast as possible and endlessly zerg m+ and raids without feeling forced to play any external/solo content. (ironic that these players turn around and harass solo players who don’t want to play grouped content.) for the rest of us, particularly solo players, it was one of the main things keeping us playing. with it gone now, the game feels completely pointless, and i feel no desire to play.
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Ok, well there are multiple forms of borrowed power.
- Borrowed number power (more dps/heals)
- Borrowed abilities.
Borrowed abilities was always bad, because you lost them and your class felt incomplete after an expansion.
Borrowed numerical power was addicting to grind, and this where you are correct. Problem is, Blizzard went from super important temp power to none at all.
Needing to grind a system just so you can do endgame content on a character after hitting max level was bad, and no one can convince me otherwise. Did it need to be that way? No, I don’t think so.
And so, we get this portion of my post:
They could give us progression that helps our characters, but isn’t a necessary step to grind for new characters. SL had: Renown and Torghast legendaries, which required a lot of grinding that was separate from regular endgame content.
Granting things like the above “paragon” via M+, raids and maybe even world quests would supplement what’s already there rather than making players deviate to content they may or may not like.
Let M+ players grind their power in M+,
Let raiders grind their power in raids,
Let solo players get their power in the world (although I personally think at a slower pace.)
The problem then becomes “well what about people who want to do it all?”
The valor cap sucks, but could easily serve as the system here. Make a seasonal cap for ‘paragon’ levels to earn. It limits cutting edge players while allowing for catchup without devaluing the progress already done. Why the separation between valor and ‘paragon’? Valor is temporary in a patch cycle, but paragon would be expansion-wide.
Anyways…bleh. I may have gone too far with this response so whatever.
this is just your perspective. i loved that it reset after every expansion, and then had new ones to discover and play with in the next.
again, just your perspective. for me it’s the only reason i liked to play my toons after hitting level cap. i liked it so much, i fully progressed every borrowed power system on 15-20 toons every expansion. it was my endgame. with it gone in DF, i’m not even bothering leveling any of my alts, or maintaining a sub.
you need to realize not all players are like you. and i’d bet the majority of the playerbase didn’t have a problem with the borrowed power systems, and many actually enjoyed them. lucky for you, Blizzard is listening to players like you, and not players like me.
Bad, outdated, low effort.
A type of expansion we didn’t need again.
RIP.
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the SL cinematic broke the internet in old blizzard fashion.
people wanna talk about their hate for sylv but she did that.
My take. The game is too old and it’s just not as fun as it used to be. Classes have been reworked so much over the years that they aren’t even fun anymore. I really wanted to go back to playing death knight this expansion but unholy and frost were still not fun.
Professions are being held back from being good for multiple reasons making them not fun to engage with. Huge grinds have lost their appeal for me overall, hence not fun.
There are a lot of stuff I just don’t engage with at the moment and I’m kind of glad I’m not being forced to. So I’m still raid logging for some casual heroic runs until something else become interesting.
So you played half the game and continue to remind me of something that’s abundantly clear: people play the game differently.
Oh get the hell over yourself. You’re preaching “ThAt’s jUsT YoU” followed by “i BeT mY pErSpEcTiVe Is ThE rEaL oNe.”
You’re a hypocrite and I’m not going to waste more time talking to you.
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i play 20 different specs over 13 different classes, 10 races, and both factions, and have run every bit of content the game offers. i just don’t run the same dungeons and raids over and over and over again just to incrementally bump up my ilvl. although i have run them over and over for mounts and mogs.
i’m not preaching, just offering a different perspective. and when someone says “i bet”, that means they’re making a guess based on their experience, and my experience is clearly different than yours.
i 100% agree with you that the absence of progression systems is a major problem. let’s leave it at that.
but that happens every expansion? and mid 300s isnt enough for LFR even(slightly over mid)
Ok so it’s not enough progression but people are saying there is no progression.
This is so true I wish I would not of got DR . Its worse then last 2 xpacs at start .
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Hahahaha oh god here it comes.
Perfect expansion with great population — but the “this expansion sucks and is dying” posts are here anyways 
I think those who have loved the game at one point want to believe it may get better. I do sometimes, but it always gets worse.
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well, its pretty true to a certain degree, its not very meaningful(dare i say meaningless) progression outside of grouped content. For me personally, yea I don’t enjoy this method. But I wont bash others for liking it, I think most of the issues just lie within the game as a whole now and the team behind it etc.
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perfect expansion with 5000 achievement points - fantastic, when did you start? Legion?