I think of Wrath as the 3rd chapter to a trilogy… I see the whole of WoW as 3 games. Classic vanilla-WotLK is Wow, Cata starts the remaking of the game and is considered MY WoW 2 start that goes thru WoD. Legion is the the start of WoW 3 thru to Shadowlands.
So wrath can’t be taken out alone and judged liked that because it’s part of a greater whole that I love. It does however have some stuff that wasn’t as good as TBC or vanilla but overall it was good.
It’s not a bad xp it was a lot of fun.
Totally different.
Especially in Vanilla because bonus set were great. Some items had unique effects and most of the players weren’t able to clean the raids so easily.
ZG wasn’t such a “hard catch-up” and was still a challenge for the casuals guilds. It clearly didn’t invalidate previous content like it happened in Wrath.
What a surprise, 2022 players are stomping 15 years old content.
Yet, i still don’t pack/aoe everything in TBCC dungeons like we’ll do in Wrath.
I guess he was comparing the “difficulty of dungeons” from back then if you played since Vanilla you clearly saw the difference.
Lol ? No it’s not 
You’ll notice what “ignored” really mean with Wrath catch-up.
This has to be a troll…
Sure we will, you just won’t need a Paladin and Mages/Warlocks to do it.
Easy to easy to… easy, if you have a team with AoE threat and AoE DPS. In Vanilla and TBC, you needed specific classes for that. In Wrath, every Tank can AoE threat and every DPS can AoE DPS.
Dungeons have never been hard, with the worst being Cata at release. I’ll take doing Blood Furnace Heroic while undergeared before doing the Giblin pulls.
Yeah they are. I haven’t run a Kara in months because I haven’t leveled a new alt in months. I know Karas still happen, but they’re literally total PuGs because the place is so easy. T5 content is so easy now that even a partial PuG can still rack up a bunch of T5 tokens with ease, making Kara entirely superfluous. Hell, if you don’t plan on doing Vashj/Kael, you can literally bring in fresh 70’s and kill the rest of the bosses.
Once Kara starts dropping badges, we’ll see more focused runs… but those badges are precisely the thing you’re whining about in Wrath with each tier providing things that “invalidates” old content.
Old content is old and stops being run for a reason. This isn’t new.
No it’s not. Some class/spec were aiming for specific bonus set + we didn’t had modern knowledge of the game. I even remember some guilds asking T0 to do MC meanwhile in Classic we saw how bad it is for nearly every classes compared to the BiS items.
It’s easy to say that in a “solved game”. Back then most of the players weren’t doing that.
If you need a specifics class/spec/gameplay combination it mean that it’s still “not easy” for the others classes.
As i said, you’ll understand what “invalidate” really mean in Wrath.
Because you don’t seem to understand the difference with Vanilla/TBC catch-up and Wrath and everyt expansions afterward catch-up.
Raid Comp/Buffs are ruined by ‘Bring the Player’.
Really leans into ‘log in daily for metrics’ design.
LFD.
Naxx.
Death Knights.
Trial of the Crusader patch.
So the meat of your argument is ignorance. People thought the set bonuses were good so they pursued them and thus old content was more meaningful…
LOL
Same as above, but with the added caveat that we absolutely AoE’d things down anytime we had a Protadin in original TBC, we just had very few of them running around.
Ignorance isn’t an excuse, and Wrath giving us more AoE tools and better AoE threat meant people pushed the envelope a bit more, flexed their muscles a bit more, and realized that the game isn’t nearly as hard as everyone made it out to be.
You can wave “solved game” all you want but that’s the inevitable end point of literally ANY expansion. If we froze WoW in time at TBC and people still dinked around on it for 4-5 years, AoEing like a madman would have been the end result without ever experiencing Wrath whatsoever.
Not really. I’ll be more prone to run Naxx for achievements than I ever do Kara. This is especially true with GDKPs and the new money maker of hosting achievement runs. There will certainly be ways to guarantee survival of all bosses to get Undying and Immortal with just a handful of dedicated leaders to manage the run and kill everything, even with virtually AFK buyers.
If you think limited protodrakes aren’t something people are going to seek out, you’re dense.
There is no difference. Vanilla had next to no catchup until ZG and then AQ20, and people barely did the latter compared to ZG aside from book farming because AQ40 and BWL were just too good and too easy to run. No one kept running MC just to keep running it.
True.
But it was part of the game experience back then. So, it’s not an excuse but not an invalid argument too.
All of the classes being able to do it without any sorts of specific spec/gameplay/knowledge is totally different + ignorance didn’t vanished as soon as Wrath came out. It was designed to be done like this. Unlike Vanilla/TBC which were clearly design to be more slow paced and requiere CC.
If you think they are gonna wait until late phase to get them you are dense.
Vanilla/TBC “old” content are still run because they are usefull for you character progress which is the core of nearly everyone unlike achivements which are optionnals.
Dunno on which server you were but i don’t remember most of the players on my servers being fully T2/T2,5 and above geared.
It’s was clearly not “easy to run” for the 2005 playerbase. I can easily find multiples screenshots/video showing how undergeared players were because most of them weren’t able to “easily” clear half of the raid content.
Yes, though I was referring to original expansion time frames, specifically when dungeons are gear progression prior to entering raids. Though since TBCC was mentioned, there are quite a few times in TBCC where in even normal dungeons you need to use CC and this is especially true for heroics early on. Sure, dungeons are easy now with gear, but the first few weeks of TBC has moments where you respect the trash and power of CC. This never happens in Wrath, normal or heroic.
I’ll admit Zul’drak was a good zone, the only one in my opinion. Grizzly Hills is bland and boring. I don’t care if zones blend into one another, it’s fine if that matters to you. I did start my comments saying this was my opinion, I prefer fantasy based zones or at least zones with unique identities.
Sure, those were issues back in the day so I’ll just admit it comes down to personal experiences and opinions on which you think is worse/more toxic. For me personally, I ran all the content I wanted in vanilla and original TBC with no issues, it wasn’t until Wrath when I felt the community itself turn toxic because of the factors I named. I hate the idea of needing to link an achievement proving I cleared a raid so I can run a raid or needing a higher gearscore than what the raid/dungeon drops so I can run it. I totally get if people thought it was worse in classic/TBC or it was simply always there.
So awkward to separate quotes when using a phone.
My position isn’t that WoTLK is a bad expansion, I was just mentioning some qualities/changes I don’t care for.
Anub’Arak was Arthas’s right-hand …beetle… he deserved a spot in ICC befitting his position.
As for vehicle fights, I just don’t care for them. Flame Leviathan was okay, but the others, I just don’t like. Strand of the Ancients is fun on offense if you’re a Balance Druid, Elemental Shaman because you can be an invincible ‘turret’.
This greatly depends on the gear you have going into Wrath. If you had anything close to T6 gear and simply swapped your old epic gems for the new uncommon gems, you had better gear in most cases than what the dungeons could even offer.
Likewise, T3 geared folks didn’t have to hold back an iota for a time, but lack of sockets and the general frailty of our T3 gear compared to literally anything we see at lvl70 makes a huge difference.
It is invalid though. That people played poorly because they didn’t know… but trended towards exactly what we have now even during those respective time periods is why it isn’t valid. People in OG Vanilla were timid inside of Strat and Scholo, and the “speed” run of Strat was considered very difficult because people were ultra cautious and hesitant to do anything quickly.
That wouldn’t have lasted forever.
They won’t, but people will still want them throughout the phase, not just at the beginning, and snagging an Undying the “normal” way will be very tough for a lot of people who don’t really see dying or goofing off as a negative in raiding.
Outside of Thunderfury, MC was dropped by nearly everyone as soon as they could manage it. Likewise BWL, AQ40, etc.
The only reason people really sought some of the older content was because the newer content didn’t provide an upgrade in a particular slot. You couldn’t replace Rejuvenating Gem and nothing in AQ20, AQ40, or Naxx really overtook it. A lack of itemization and compelling drops made very specific items important to very specific people… but that’s it.
And they better itemized future raids for exactly that reason. Hanging onto a 5man item for multiple raid tiers (hello Strat robes on my Holy Paladin) is just poor poor design.
Which doesn’t really matter since the actual roadblock wasn’t player skill, but guild politics. You were either in a guild you could stomach all the Mini-Napoleons or you were in a casual one that barely killed Rag because keeping even 20 of the 40 raiders awake and at their computer was a chore.
The very notion of running a complete PuG of Molten Core would have gotten you laughed out of every forum and guild website of the day… and yet it was entirely doable because the content was dog easy even then. People just had really weird concepts of guild/raid management from EverQuest. Those are bad habits I’m glad we dropped.
I suppose that’s fair, although I like the rug-pull arrival of Arthas just to drop us into yet another Nerubian chasm. Perhaps had they not “wasted” him in a 5man first…
Fair enough I suppose.
LFD is far superior to the don’t get invited if you don’t have BiS (overgear) for the 5 man dungeons. Day 1 TBC was LFM Ramparts must be full T3 spam and was super ridiculous.
Nothing prevented you to create your own “normal group” nor LFD will prevent the “only T6 /Sunwell geared players” to farm dungeons day 1 of Wrath.
But you can expect LFD to bring more toxicity and players leaving/kicking at the first mistake.
Why ? Because without LFD leaving/kick make them wasting THEIR time so they tend to be more patient or helpful to don’t waste THEIR time
LFD remove all of that since they can just push a button and get teleported + it’s crossrealm so, who care about “randoms i’ll never meet again” ?
LFD will fill the group for you making the decision to boot a bad player easier if they’re screwing up a run. I can tolerate a lot of bad play from Healers and DPS alike in my Heroics, but part of that tolerance (since the players don’t actually improve or respond to critique) is anchored to the fact that I’d have to zone out with another person to summon a replacement and that’ll probably take more time than to just limp through the finish line with the scrubs I have.
It isn’t a strict good/bad thing. Inconveniences in group forming and traveling to and from dungeons make people tolerate truly crappy players a lot more than they need to. Convenience lets people have a hair trigger for performance.
I much prefer the latter to the former since you can actually do something about bad players without wasting your own time in the process. I don’t care about low DPS really, just don’t try to wipe us with dumb plays and don’t be an open a-hole in chat, otherwise I will gleefully kick you.
It doesn’t. /thread
Wrath is bad because of the million forum posts about it 8 months or w/e before it comes out - same old story as end of Vanilla.
TBC was suddenly everyone’s favourite xpac and vanilla classic was the waiting room - same thing is happening with Wrath now, just waiting for the post-launch posts from everyone now saying how bad Wrath really is.
You have to do Naxx again and a brain dead version of it. ToC is a short raid that will probably be a whole phase in WOTLK classic. There 2 good main raids and 2 really bad main raids.
The arugment of naxx being too easy makes no sense to me because what in tbc is actually difficult?
I guess everyone saying “Naxxramas is easy” say it based on how easy it was even for us back then in 2008 after Vanilla/TBC where raids felt more demanding & where most of the players weren’t able to do all of the content.
So, yeah, maybe in 2022 nothing feel “hard” since the game is solved and the skillcap of players dramasticly rised but back then, WOTLK P1 content was a “joke” you can still find topics of players debatting about it.
I’m nearly sure Naxxramas/Sartharion were the first raids being sompted in PuG so fast. Even Karazhan wasn’t fully cleaned (11/11) in Pug like that until some nerfs. I’m not even talking about Maghteridon/Gruul.
Nah, the heroics are harder than people think right at the start unless you are T7 geared but they are easy enough to where people would be stupid to kick over wearing blues. I know I will personally be reporting people for that toxicity if I see it. The people that want overgeared groups should be the ones making their own groups.