Why is mage trash dps now?

Classes Mage
21

I’ll explain this since you seem to be missing the forest for the trees: a “pure” dps class has no other options. It’s dps, dps or dps. It’s not like “oh hey ‘x’ spec for ‘y’ class isn’t doing well, I’ll just heal or tank.” Thus if all 3 specs for a pure class are mediocre to bad, it’s far more noticeable.

Next, nowhere in my post did I say, suggest or imply that mages should be buffed to #1. Making up blatantly false claims is a terrible way to debate someone. I also specifically said no class is hard to play, But there are noticeable differences. As a BM hunter you of all players should know that. :wink: The point which you’re missing is that you can play several other classes, many of which are 3-4 button wonders and do way less work for way more payoff; that’s not fun on our end. Why do you think the demonology bug fix/trait nerf hurt them so badly? Sure EP was broken and needed to be toned down, but they hit the spec very hard and when you combine that with how much harder it is to pull off than any melee or even destro, it’s very noticeable.

You can claim a class is fine all you want but that doesn’t make it so. You have your opinion on the subject, but the OP and several others have a different one. And you’re not “sympathizing” with us when you make up lies about what people say, tell them they’re wrong and everything is “fine” and grossly distort things people are saying.

8 Likes
22

Again you’re bringing things up that the game is NOT balances around. Sorry to tell you this but all specs are 3-5 buttons without CDs. All of them. Your class is NOT hard. You do NOT deserve special treatment because you think it’s harder than another class, it’s NOT.

My data is off Warcraft logs, it’s not an opinion it is FACT. You are around 1600 dps behind, that is FACT off of data. You are not last, that is also FACT based off data. You saying you shouldn’t be that low is OPINION.

Do you understand yet?

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23

Still feel you’re “sympathizing?” You keep adding in things to my posts that aren’t there, which again shows more about you than anything else. No one is arguing for special treatment. No one is saying mage is hard. You keep claiming we are but we’re not. I’m simply saying that certain classes take much more effort and show less results. It’s not a hard concept.

And every post on the forums is an opinion. Do YOU understand that? You getting butthurt when someone disagrees is both amusing and ironic considering you think you’re commiserating with people when in FACT (see wut I did thar?) you’re just here to troll a post that has nothing to do with you.

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25

Oh I know I am, you’ve been saying that constantly for months.

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26

I don’t mean to troll you guys……. no really I hate trolling!

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27

Why do I feel like mage is not trash and am confused by posts like these. It’s still a struggle to find classes that out dps me in m+ and some raid.

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28

Design wise how would you suggest it complete with other multi-DoT specs in a Multi-DoT tier without making them busted like Demo was?

The only way you are gonna make them look high on overall in Warcraftlogs is to buff their ST to levels that would outclass Multi-Target. Now if you are completely ruling out them competing with multi-target specs then you can prolly make a fairly good argument for them beating those said specs in ST if they are losing to them in that(hard to tell in this tier because theres no fight without adds).

1 Like
29

I’m just sitting here trying to figure out why this 3/9M BM hunter is in a mage thread talking nonsense and trying to make it seem like he knows what he’s talking about.
Like for instance, where the hell he’s getting this 1600 dps behind figure from his “data” when every percentile statistics aggregate over all bosses has us 2k+ DPS behind the top 3-5 performers, and the higher the percentile goes the worse it gets. I mean even at the 10th percentile it’s 1800 behind top performers.

Mage is objectively bad right now due to a lot of problems.

Frost has no bad luck protection often leading to 6-10 frostbolts in a row unable to cast glacial spike due to no brain freeze, leading some people to even go out of their way to try and set up an all ice lance build which outside of splitting ice fairs somewhat worse than GS.

Arcane is pretty awful outside of single target or mass AoE, and even then, they don’t compare to frost on mass AoE and their ST is highly reliant on not moving, especially during arcane power windows.

Fire had its best traits nerfed into oblivion for seemingly no reason as it was middle of the pack with them in their previous tuning. It’s the most played spec traditionally and the only one of the 3 that mechanically plays pretty well in all situations, albeit with 0 talent variety running the same talents on every fight aside from swapping to living bomb for opulence. Being that it is the most played, and best mechanically of the 3, for some reason it’s tuned likely the worst out of any spec in the game. Its scaling is atrocious, outside of 10 sec combustion DPS windows you do less persistent DPS than tanks, the traditionally very powerful aoe that fire brought, like arcane, can’t hold a candle to frost, and without blaster master our cleave is pretty terrible as well.

Now the problem facing all 3 specs is, the raid is designed for multi dot classes, further punishing our class choice. Even on Mekkatorque, looking at the 80th percentile dps aggregate, the only purely single target fight in the instance we don’t shine. Aff locks / ele / BM huntards / MM hunters all beat even arcane on that fight. Fire loses to every other ranged spec, and frost only beats a handful of melee specs, melee specs which due to the fight’s design lose upwards of 30-40% uptime actually hitting the boss, and yet half of them still manage to edge out frost. It gets worse above 80th percentile.

If you’re gonna come in here spouting rhetoric about facts and data, learn how to actually analyze it and objectively look at the clear and present issue. Community perception of weakness isn’t just blowing smoke up each other’s a**es as Blizzard seems to think. Community perception of weakness is rooted in the fact that there is clear and present weakness.

13 Likes
30

First you pick out the TOP dps classes in a multi dotting raid tier and say it’s more than 2k!! Like wtf???

Look at where MM and demo are, they are top tier. At 75th I will use MM since it’s 1 spot higher it’s dps at 75th over the raid tier is 24,475 dps Now let’s go look at the WORST mage spec which is 23,320 dps at 75th. Wow so unbalanced…

Your worst spec is under 1200 dps behind a spec that’s in the top 8 dps in the tier.

Not sure how much balance you want. Sure the top 3 are very strong in this tier. Sure dotting is amazing in this tier. But besides them over performing on this tier because of the fights leaning in there favor everyone else is pretty close.

If you made this same comparison in 8.1 before and BM was buffed the same statistics of bottom vs the top 8th spot had a dps difference of over 3,000 dps. Now that’s a huge gap which is why BM was buffed, you’re 1200 dps behind. The sky is not falling.

If you’re going to bring up spec mechanics and rotation flaws that’s fine, i can understand that, like frost not getting procs for 10 frostbolts. But that’s a separate issue all together.

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31

The difference between the top 3-5 classes is the important statistic here, you are comparing apples and oranges. Comparing mage to the middle of the pack performers makes no sense because why would you bring a mage when you could bring a spriest or a warlock or an ele shaman (EDIT: Boomkin even). They fill the same raid spot as a ranged caster DPS and do well over 2-5k DPS more. The difference in dps between the top 5 specs, and the highest mage spec is 10%, the difference between spriest and arms warrior is 15%. That kind of spread makes anything below feral druids largely irrelevant.

There is a pervasive and game wide balance problem right now. There has and always will be fotm specs, that get stacked in raid, mass rerolled to etc. But now more than ever those fotm specs are so far ahead other specs cant even compete with them on fights where they should shine. I am just specifically advocating for mage because it’s what I’m playing right now. You coming in here and essentially saying “oh it’s not that bad, my class had it worse a while ago” is both ignorant and unhelpful.

And if you’re going to continue to compare everyone on the bottom to middle of the pack, 2k/25k is still 8%, which is sizeable.

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32

Sorry you should not be expecting to complete with the top 3 or so specs at ANYTIME in this game. That’s just not how the game works on any raid tier. You being buffed to bring you up to dotting classes is just not a reasonable suggestion. Classes have pros and cons and performance varies from fight to fight, that’s why it’s best to take in the whole picture of the tier which is the data I use ( which everyone seems to think I’m using it wrong?).

Yes you should be compared to other dps but in a dps spot that’s comfortable which is around #8. You want to be mid tier, asking to be top 3 is a bit greedy. The game is balances around mid tier, which is why everyone is closer to them then the outliers up in the top.

The data i provided is just that, it’s data from parses over thousands of fights. 75th is a good spot to see this data. 75 is not a bad parse by any means and if all the mid tiers did a 75 you would only be 1200 dps behind like that data points too, I’m sorry you feel you should be in the top or balances around the top but that’s not how Blizzard does it.

Even if you took the max dps at 75th it’s still under 2k, I was getting 1600 dps before because I was just kinda averaging it. 1200-1900 really isn’t that big of a gap. In a perfect world sure we should all be 5% apart at most, but that’s never going to be the case. Suggesting mages are “trash” dps is just a huge reach.

1 Like
33

I’ll say this as simply as I can.

The game no longer has class niches
Some specs are still shackled to them.

Mage adheres to vanilla philosophy (Glass cannon, no self heals)
Mage hits like noodle

This is a problem that affects plenty of classes in both PVE and PVP environment.

Its a problem with the game itself. I don’t mind class fantasy when we all play by the rules. I do mind it when I’m held to that rule and the guy next to me is hyper mobile, self healing with stuns and top dps and were over here like ???

So that being said. Yes mages SHOULD be one of the highest DPS in game. Period

When you have no stuns, no sustain, no self heals and all you have is damage then that damage needs to be immense to make up for what YOU don’t have in your toolkit.

If you have top damage, top self healing, top CC, top micro cc and stuns and top aoe dps

You have it all and that is a problem.

That is class design and balance. The second you go against that and make everyone elso demi gods and the other guy is living class fantasy you got threads like you have on mage forums and warr forums and were like ??? WTF??? WHY DO WE SUCK

15 Likes
34

There’s no world where you act reasonably instead of assuming because I point at the outliers as a problem and that the gap between top and bottom should be 2k not 5k+ means i want to do 30k DPS, so I’m just gonna say enjoy whatever pleasure you derive from continuing to think you’re right. I got better stuff to do than spend all day debating that a class with all 3 specs worse than all the dps specs of 7 other entire classes needs to be buffed slightly and brought in line.

Enjoy your life, l8a.

5 Likes
36

You’re right I’m wrong…we should all have dots to be amazing in this tier. Everyone should Excel at multi dotting spread cleave. We should all just be amazing at everything.

Why should I a trash BM hunter see class diversity and see why the logs and who is leading said logs use basic thinking on why they are in the lead. And also see why everyone besides them are actually around the same dps levels. I mean who am I to point out that the weakest mage spec is still just 1200 dps from the 8th top dps spec…that doesn’t matter, we want moar dots!!!

1 Like
37

I gave up arguing with this individual because they’re clearly here under disingenuous reasons, love attributing things to posters that they didn’t come close to saying and really offer nothing to the discussion other than “stop crying cuz it cud b worse, majez r fine.” Your strategy to leave it be is the correct one.

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38

All Moon does is whine… it gets old very quickly.

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39

No stuns but you have Sheep and roots, both are very strong depending on the content you are doing, less so in raiding sadly. No self heals but you have mage shields to absorb damage and Iceblock which while flawed can be used to cheese many raid mechanics. You are better off than MM hunters and Arms warriors at least with sustain.

You are underplaying mages, sure your not #1 damage right now but thinking you deserve it when your still better off than other specs is a joke. Mages should not be #1 this raid tier, it’s a multi-dot raid so the classes that specialize on that should bring superior damage.

I would love changes to mages myself but some of you are clearly playing favorites here while downplaying how good mages are overall.

This is a real problem and it needs to change. Some classes and specs got left behind over the years while others can do everything.

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40

Lol, I posted on a four defending a class and provided data that supports how they really aren’t bad, the opposite of whining.

You posted on a forum about a class where they are infact whining, then proceeded to whine about someone who wasn’t even whining in any of these posts.

Do you see the irony in this?

But it’s ok I expect no less from your posts, they have no thought behind them, nothing worthy ever comes from anything you ever say on these foruma. You read paragraphs and get some convoluted imaginary conclusions on what was actually said in the paragraphs you read.

I do recall sticking up for BM when we we’re 20% behind other classes in dps, while you told us to stop whining, not sure how that ended though? Oh right we got a massive buff.

Move along nobody of worth to see here.

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41

dude, even mentioning arcane means you have no ideawhat you are talking about…

yeah arcane Sims great! go tryband replicate it

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42

you are crying and attacking mages on the mage board… how dense are you?

not to mention, 2k dps in legion was not a big deal when you are doing a bajillion dps…

2k dps is a bigger deal when you are only doing 30k.

Why does it always have ti be a hunter… and a bm hunter at that

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