But what’s stopping you from doing a 10-man raid right now?
Also, every expansion since (and including) Legion has had a mega-dungeon of sufficient difficulty without a timer (and there will no doubt will be one in an upcoming patch).
Yet, this complaint still persists… 
M+? Sure.
The timer? I’m not that sold on it.
I’m not against the timer, but, despite opinions to the contrary, there is a way of developing M+ without a timer, if the devs really wanted to do that… (see: Delves)
I haven’t raided since Antorus, but I do not remember us Lusting on every single boss, even on Heroic. Is that a thing that happens nowadays? If not, I don’t see why it would be the case for a non-timered M+.
And even then, if the devs wanted to combat degenerate gameplay, they could add restrictions to M+ runs, kind of like how they do in the MDI with Lust and BRez timed charges to prevent teams from stacking classes that bring those buffs.
Huh, my cooldown usage used to be fairly nonstop in M+ and the pace is always go go go.
There is no timer on m0, which is the equivalent of an old +10.
It’d be great to see them undue the m+ squish, and keep 0-10 untimed, and add a timer for keys over 10.
Right now there is no sense of progression and learning for people who should be in zeroes. They hop straight into +4-7’s without realizing it’s an old 14-17 and get absolutely wrecked, and no one wants to spend their time in 0 - 3’s learning mechanics.
As far as removing the timer for all key levels and instead using a death count, I’m not sure that’s a great system. Part of the issue there is that many of the mechanics even at very low levels are one shots (there’s like 3 separate constant 1 shot mechanics on the last boss of Ara-Kara for example) where making a death counter would likely be more brutal than the timer. Death counters also de-incentivize the use of battle res, since the penalty is already applied.
I do think death penalties are good for encouraging smaller pulls (which seems to always be a Blizz team goal), but I think the solution there should be finding a way to bring back sheep / sap / cc rather than “just keep the pulls small.”
It’s also pretty unfortunate how high the trash count requirement is combined with the lack of skips available due to truesight.
Flexibility in pathing is one of the best parts of M+ and that type of creativity should be encouraged.
Yes bc there is a timer. If you didn’t have one you could sit in front of a boss for 5m wait for lust and do it on every boss to overcome it instead of having to choose those types of things. The slime elementals that reset all your cds after the timer runs out is essentially letting the groups have a little easier time finishing the dung and not making them just sit there for cds to reset. It was a nice touch from blizz imo putting them in
If there’s no timer you can just wait for cds every pack, the sweatiest would lust everything. Would be so boring.
Exactly. Do a delve and try it out yourself. Probably 12-14 pulls total in them but sit in between and wait the time before your next pull and it ends up being pretty boring. At least for me
Again, I ask / say:
yes adding more health and damage to mobs. making things damage sponges.
I leveled up my delves while being undergeared by waiting for earth ele to constantly be up
that is not good design, and is a reason delves loot cap out. because the moment you remove the timer, everything becomes easier
every single raid boss I have done in WoW you lust.
this happened during Antorus.
this happened before legion.
why wouldn’t you unless you don’t have a luster. which is nearly impossible
Because sitting around waiting for all your big cooldowns and stuns and interrupts to be available for every trash pack pull isnt “challenging”
But figuring out how and what to pull and when to do it and how to best use your cooldowns inside a specified amount of time…well thats the essence of m+
Death timer would be so much better.
“But then groups would wait for cool downs before each pull!”
So what. Who cares if a group wants to take an hour to safely push their way through a dungeon? You can still speed run the content of you want to.
this ^^^^^^^ made me laugh bc of its accuracy
I love how you broke it down in crayons that can be understood without being insulting.
Don’t worry man, blizz gave you delves. You can let go of the rest.
Performance under a clock has been a thing for ages. “Eat 700 hot dogs in 3 minutes. Complete a tri-athalon in less than 60 minutes. Run faster around this Olympic hurdle track faster than 7 other people to win”. Being timed or going fast is nothing new. Anyone can clear Mythic 0 in 2 hours, but can they clear the same dungeon as Mythic 12 in 27 minutes?
Because a timer makes it fun. Taking 2 hours to finish a +10 with 197 deaths isn’t enjoyable.
The timer is there to make the mode more toxic than it has to be
Delves feel like minefields where you can’t pull more than one thing at a time and if you step the wrong way you wasted your whole run. M+ used to feel like pull big, execute and blast… if the timer encourages that I’m good with it. This season they tried to correct VDH cc’ing half the dungeon for 5 minutes straight and timing a decent key with 30 deaths… I think they went to far and I hope they’ll swing back in season 2.
Exactly this. Without a timer, how would it be designed any different than just being a raid?