Why don't Tauren join the Alliance?

Yes you are. Because I do something a specific way, you want to make sweeping judgments about my moral character. That is attributing motive. I am not robbing anyone of context, the context is right there for everyone to see at the click of a button. Get over yourself.

Not what I said. For someone who likes to throw around accusations of taking people out of context, you sure do it a lot.

There is no substantial evidence for unconscious bias because there is no scientific consensus on it. That is, in part, because it is an unprovable hypothesis. It is an idea predicated on attributing motive to people, something you seem very adept at doing.

I never made that claim. YOU brought up Quetzolcoatal as if to suggest Hakkar’s unlikeness to Quetzolcoatal is evidence that Blizzard is relying on negative tropes. I brought up Kululkan to disprove that claim. Stop lying.

Just because you reject blatant evidence presented to you doesn’t mean it’s not scholarly evidence.

It’s not, and that short biography about her personal life (not academic) doesn’t disprove anything. I didn’t know the gender of the person, because I only ever saw the name and either didn’t notice the pronouns used, or there weren’t any.

I am using Westboro as an example. Vodou has it’s issues just like every religion that has ever existed. Just because your bias doesn’t allow you to see that doesn’t make it any less factual.

Which is only portrayed as such either from the nelf perspective, or retroactively when Garrosh was Villain batted in MOP. More baseless claims that we have tussled over for weeks now. All you have done is make declarative statements, and haven’t objectively proven your position in any sense. The only thing you are effectively doing at this point is waste my time.

Again, that instance is not what you claim it to be. The Harpies were actively desecrating shines on Hyjal and serving the Black Dragonflight. You want an example of real in-universe racism? Garithos.

A non-Highborn noble house?.. If they aren’t highborn, they aren’t noble…

It doesn’t matter, these things happened in undetermined points during her reign. This isn’t a timeline, this is just a brief description of what happened over the course of these thousands of years.

And yet, the entire culture 180ed into not JUST anti-arcane, but outright, hostile rejection of it. And entire culture reformatted to be the antithesis of the Highborne way of life. The Highborne Empire is the antithesis of modern day Night Elf. Saying it is nelf lore is like saying elf lore is Troll Lore. Or ogre lore is orc lore.

First, you don’t know that because numbers on night elf losses were not given. Second, the effects of what happened in Gnomergan were not as long lasting or as detrimental as the loss of the Dragon Aspects Blessings.

Fair enough, I must have missed that. But define true aging? Because 7 years for a race that lives thousands shouldn’t be suffering significant joint pains, wrinkles, and even death. True aging can just as easily mean aging beyond the point of maturity. It says nothing regarding the rate in-which they are aging. What we know for a fact is night elves are dying after only 7 years of aging, despite that they ought to be in prime, physical condition.

So we agree, Frostmane Welps are not children. Got it.

Vitality from Alextraza. Not immortality, but they did regain longevity and health. Which was the entire point of Teldrassil since Cata. It is unclear if the Night Elves will ever get that back. The weight of this line from Elegy cannot be understated.

“How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.”

It is a real possibility that the Burning of Teldrassil fast-tracked the Kaldorei to extinction.

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Oi, this thread is still going on?

I read it during Zoom meetings.

It was amusing at first, but now they’re just arguing in circles sadly.

I’m not making sweeping judgements about your character. I -and others- have just been describing your actions. You reduce paragraph long posts into sentence fragments, which robs them of context. You’ve been shown how to quote people and sources in full in a way that keeps space to minimum. You’ve been invited to discuss directly with me Tamani#2391 on Discord so you don’t even have to quote. You continue to refuse to do so.

In addition to this, you continue to deny instances of systemic racism, unconscious bias in general and in WoW in particular. You’re reluctant to provide scholarly sources and the few non-scholarly sources produced by others you have tried to use to back up your arguments either call out the existence of racism in portrayals of Vodou or engage in it themselves. And you call people who disagree with you names. You are not transparent. In fact, you also openly engage in lying.

The more you post, the more the nature of your conduct is revealed.

You stated already that you’re aware of the studies supporting the idea and your false claim that it’s controversial and not accepted because just as many studies questioning it. We both know the theory and studies supporting it exist, but only you seem to be aware of all these studies that counter it. So let’s see those studies. You’re still refusing to offer sources.

I argued that by reducing it’s representation of Mesoamerican religion to only the best known shallow stereotypes of step pyramids, feathered serpents and the bloodthirsty savage jungle tribes that collect human sacrifices- Blizzard unintentionally perpetuated the continued narrative in which representations of Mesoamerican religion begins and end with Quetzalcoatl and bloody human sacrifice. And with Quetzalcoutal being the most well known of the Mesoamerican feathered serpents, an example of unintentional referenc. That also furthers a misconception Your argument is that this can’t be an unintentional reference if Blizzard was intentionally referencing Kululkan.

You’re the one claiming what Blizzard is intentionally trying to convey.

Both the African Symbols and Egyptian Symbols actually say the following about author/illustrator Heike Owusu…

If you’d actually done research or read the books you’re talking about and not simply lied, you would have gotten basic facts about the author and their lack of qualifications correct. It also explains why you still can’t produce any actual links backing up your lies about the author’s academic background.

Vodou (like many things) is not the Westboro Baptist Church. Just because the Westboro Baptist Church preaches a lot of hateful stuff, it doesn’t mean that the ignorant and often racist portrayal of Vodou as a religion full of evil, human sacrifice, cannibalism, and other atrocities in service of evil spirits- is correct. The only bias I have is that I actually practice Vodou, which means my understanding of it comes from reality -as opposed to the horror films, urban legends, hack new age books, and stereotypes born of ignorance and racism that you seem to base your understanding of the faith on.

Garrosh was starting to get villain batted from the Alliance and Horde side back in Cataclysm, where was challenged by every member of the Horde leadership. The one quest everyone likes to point to as an example of Garrosh being a stand up guy has long since been pointed out by Blizzard as a hiccup. After Garrosh was gone, the Shatterspear disappeared from the game’s narrative until it was time for them to show back up and serve the next Warchief villain. They have served no other role in the game’s narrative.

Then you go to other threads and claim you’d agree with me and others if only we wouldn’t pass judgement on you- which we haven’t. We just describe your actions- which you continue to engage in, even in other threads.

As a result of this thread, I’ve had a couple people reach out to me with additional questions and had some intersting conversations about Vodou and it’s portrayal in media. I said at the beginning that I’m talking to a larger audience and expose you- not trying to actually convince you to admit you’re wrong. So if you feel all the time you spend responding to me is a waste, you’re free to stop at any time. Or you can contact me on Discord, as others already have.

Garithos said/did a lot of things. But what things do *you* think he did that were "legitimately" racist? I’m genuinely curious, as I consider a character talking about how other races are unequal, then admitting to using the given situations as an excuse to drive out those less equal races to be an example of racism. But apparently you don't.

”Skylord Omnuron has been too gentle with the Wormwing harpies. He allows them to share a perch on this mountain just because they’re creatures of the air. Well , not all creatures of the air are created equal.

When the attacks on Hyjal began, the Wormwing went into a frenzy. They’re up there right now, assaulting a sacred shrine they once claimed to revere.

I’m not troubled. Now we have a reason to drive them from Hyjal, don’t we?”

-Thisalee Crow

The Night Elf tangent.

He was a non-Highborn noble in the Kaldorei Empire. Blizzard said so. Here. And here on pg 160 especially, but also every time Lord Ravencrest and his house are referred to as nobles.
[quote]

[/quote]

It doesn’t matter, these things happened in undetermined points during her reign. This isn’t a timeline, this is just a brief description of what happened over the course of these thousands of years.
[/quote]

The Networks of luminescent causeways, limned by the silver Light of Elune, radiated out across the far corners of Kalimdor” is in the same sentence where it points out that it’s describing the Kaldorei Empire reaching a point that would never be seen again. And nowhere is it ever stated that the Church of Elune was in decline, let alone when like you claim.

And yet modern Kaldorei society includes Highborne and arcane traditions practiced by Highborne and non-Highborne. Many of the Kaldorei alive today -including Tyrande and Malfruion- were members of the Kaldorei Empire at its height. The Kaldorei Empire is Kaldorei lore.

So if Night Elf losses were never given, you have no grounds on which to call it the most significant genocide.Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls have had to deal with the consequences of their genocide longer than Night Elves have.

True aging is aging s aging like other mortals. The comparison of what the Night Elves are experiencing to the experiences of other mortals is made repeatedly. Malfurion does not suffer from joint pains; he felt a “twinge” throughout his whole body, followed by existential angst. Tyrande -who has been graying since youth- has started to experience the very “fine lines” at the creases of her eyes, not “wrinkles”. We also don’t know of any Night Elves dying of 7 years of old age, as the only one for whom a cause of death is explicitly given (Jarroth’s wife) succumbed to disease like any mortal.

Frostmane Whelps and dragon whelps being children. And Night Elves don’t struggle with infertility like you claim.

Alextraza and Ysera did not bless the Night Elves with vitality. They blessed Teldrassil with vitality in order to combat the corruption within it. Also, “too few” is apparently enough to single handedly retake Northshore and Ashenvale against the Horde military, and enough to ” …spread to seemingly every surface of the city, continued down through the Valley of Heroes, and spilled out most of the way to Goldshire.” And how long that remains the case remains to be seen.

The Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls weren’t left with even that much in the immediate wake of their respective genocides.

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Yes you are. Your “descriptions” are completely baseless because I specifically quote you for the sake of transparency. I am not robbing anyone of any context, because you can, as I said before, expand the quote and see full context. This isn’t complicated.

Lol, I am the only one who has cited sources in this thread. Unconscious is the claim, the burden of proof falls on you and those who support it, to prove. Just because the claims exist doesn’t mean they have a base to stand on, hence the difference between being supported by substantial evidence or not.

You are trying so hard to twist my words and work me into some kind of “gotcha”. If you’re position is really that unconscious bias is something that is scientifically proven… Well, you are going to have a bad time.

You don’t even understand my argument. I never said… Not once… that Blizzard was intentionally referencing Kulkukan. YOU pointed out that Quetzalcoutal never involved human sacrifice in his worship, as if to imply that Blizzard’s portrayal of MesoAmerican religions was based upon stereotypes. My argument was that you were attributing motive, because you don’t know what Blizzard’s creative process was. They -could- have been referencing Kululkan for all you know. I never said that was the came, my entire point was to point out that you don’t know, because you love to make sweeping claims about things from places of ignorance.

Where exactly is the line drawn between what is or isn’t allowable when it comes to appropriating culture, or drawing from culture, in fantasy world building? Is it authenticity? If so, human sacrifice lines up a Kululkan inspired deity, but not so much with Quetzalcoutal. So, clearly that’s not the line. So your problem isn’t that, your problem is any time fantasy appropriates from a culture of non-European origin, they ought not to be portrayed in any negative light what-so-ever.

This is made clear by the fact that you utterly refuse to accept that there could be Anything negative about Vodou, not even small sects within the Voudou religion who has unsavory means of practice.

I will say this, if you wanted to make a case for unconscious bias, you certainly have, but perhaps not the way you think. You have very adequately demonstrated a very clear racial and cultural bias in favor of non-European peoples. So much, that you brazenly turn a blind eye toward any and all criticism, and will even go as far to make personal attacks against someone’s moral character for making such criticisms.

You will even go as far to completely write-off the works of an African professor, who is specifically writing about and African religion. Refuting it with nothing more than your own subjective experience.

No he wasn’t.

I love how Horde players play the victim card. Defending Garrosh unless it suits them to sweep up more victim points.

We have been over this, in Cata, Garrosh was given an excuse for everything. Orcs starving in Durotar, Poison on his weapon that he didn’t know about, not even wanting to mantle of Warcheif when it was given to him. Hell, even Vol’jinn admits he spoke out of line.

No, Garrosh wasn’t villain batted in Cata, in fact, Bliizard went to lengths to try and make what he was doing seem less bad.

Good. I have never said Vodou is inherently bad, I am just not stupid enough to believe that is infallible either. Again, Christianity isn’t the Westboro Baptist Church.

You are not going to “expose” me. Unless you intend on completely slandering me over a difference of opinion. There is really nothing to expose.

Again, the Harpies were servants of the Black Dragon Flight and desecrating shrines on Hyjal.

It’s funny to me, because it’s not like I don’t believe Night Elves have the capacity for racist ideas. They are explicitly called Xenophobic by Blizzard in some cases. I just think this particular example is a bad one.

I also think Kaldorei xenophobia is much more complicated. Because on one hand, they closed themselves off during the Long Vigil and seemed to react to intruders violently. On the other hand, they were more than willing to allow the Shatterspear and Dark Trolls live in their forests, as well as develop a number of symbiotic relationships with other races and species. So the term “xenophobic” in this case, I am not sure is a matter of race as much as it is a matter of “outsiders” in general. Or maybe Blizzard is just inconsistent, which is also true.

Highborne are “Children of Noble Birth”. Nobles are Highborn lol. The term highborn means noble… there is no such thing as a non-highborn noble.

Now if you want to say that there was some latter in the caste system that allowed Kaldorei to become HIghborne, then that might be true. The Highborne were still the ruling caste.

You are the one that claimed a “when” when you said the renaming of Elune’dris happened at the beginning of Azshara’s reign… Which is a baseless claim.

Again, the renaming of Elune’dris to Zin’Azsharai is significant, as Azshara is elevated to a place of Godship, being more worthy of the city’s namesake than Elune. Pair that also with this from the Sisterhood of Elune Encyclopedia: “Yet in spite of all their knowledge and experience, the priestesses had become somewhat aloof from the rest of night elf society. Tyrande believed that this distance was partly to blame for the cataclysmic war, and she resolved that her order would take up the duty of directing the Sentinels”

It’s not hard to figure our that Elune Worship was in decline at the time of Azshara’s reign.

Under constant watch of the Sisterhood of Elune. It is not a caste system built upon the conditions of one’s birth and one’s ability to use magic.

Yes I do, because the lasting effects are the most significant.

After 7 years… A race that lives thousands of years, after 7 are experiencing these things. That is not natural aging.

Yes they do.

Which extended to the night elves… Meaning she blessed the Night Elves with Vitality…

With God given super powers, yeah.

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Also with the Gilnean Worgen and Ivar Bloodfangs Pack helping. Just wanted to add that. People tend to forget that. :gift_heart:

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Night Elves have been such a positive influence on Genn that he went from the man who had a wall built in his name to a person who would never turn his back on his allies again.

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Dude’s dad got ganked by grimtotem

Give Baine a break

It was actually literally brought up in Nazjatar:

https://i.imgur.com/6GKuC2r.jpg

Are you still trying to establish this false narrative? That the Night Elves that were left out of Highborne society are somehow also responsible for the expansion of the Night Elf Empire, when the lore specifically says they followed Cenarius and had no involvement in it.

This is like trying to blame Baine for the War of the Thorns.

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It’s mostly Genns relationship with Anduin that’s changed him more than anything since he sees Anduin as an adopted son. And you do know he’s been living in STORMWIND since Cata right? You’re giving the Night Elves far more credit than they actually deserve.

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I am pretty sure the argument they are having is not whether or not the modern Kaldorei should be blamed for the War of the Ancients. They’re arguing about whether or not content that covers the old Kaldorei Empire counts as night elf content or not.

Which it does.

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She is relentless… She doesn’t even bring up anything new, she just repeats herself over, and over and over… I even sight SCHOLORLY SOURCES, which she will dismiss with nothing more than her own subjective perspective… Then she has the audacity to say that -I- am arguing disingenuously.

She makes blatant attacks on my moral character, and soft-ball calls me a racist. But somehow -I- am the disingenuous one?

We are not talking about content, we are talking about race representation. Which, calling back 10,000 years in the past to a culture that is entirely different than modern Kaldorei is not modern Kaldorei content.

And this can be an entire thread all on it’s own. Why isn’t there any Long-vigil era representation for night elves? It makes up the last 10,000 years of their history, yet whenever we get Nelf stuff, it’s either druid stuff or Highborne stuff.

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As long as Tamanii is not trying to claim the non-Highborne Night Elves took land from Trolls, that’s good enough for me.

From Elegy:

    Genn was silent for a long time. “When did you learn so much about strategy?”

    Anduin laughed humorlessly. “I was reading when I should have been sparring.”

    “Well, you are a fool.” Anduin turned to regard him, surprised by the words. “A fool to think for a moment that I would withdraw my support because you are helping the kaldorei. Do I want my kingdom back? My people to return to their homes? Of course I do! Do I want it badly enough to allow innocent night elves to suffer, when they so generously have helped the Gilneans these last few years? When they mitigated the worgen curse, so we could hang on to ourselves and not get lost in madness? When they fed us, sheltered us, and offered us their home when we had nothing?”

    Genn made a dismissive noise, somewhere between a huff and a snarl. “No. I would never betray that kindness by turning my back on them now. Sylvanas doesn’t understand that about the living. And she certainly doesn’t understand the Alliance. She is in for a rude awakening, and you can mark my words.”

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The War of the Ancients is the single most important event in Night Elven history. It single handedly shaped the new culture they adopted and serves as a backstory for 90% of their character roster. It is absolutely night elf representation in the game.

There not being more content about the Long Vigil is an issue with Blizzard’s world building in general. Why do we know basically nothing about the Empire of Zul? The Aqir War? All troll content focuses heavily on their defeats with their victories treated as foot notes, then troll civilization grows stagnant for thousands of years at a time where apparently nothing happened.

It is just how Blizzard does things. There’s massive gaps in the world history where we’re lead to believe nothing interesting happened. It happens to elves, trolls, humans, dwarves, etc.

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We are not talking about the War of the Ancients, we are talking about Highborne society as it existed during Azshara’s Empire, which is NOT a representation of modern nelves.

I do not disagree on this point.

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You were discussing the Kaldorei Empire as it existed just prior to and during the War of the Ancients. The Kaldorei Empire wasn’t just the Highborne and their elitist mage culture. As Amadis has pointed out many times in other threads the commoners under the Kaldorei Empire still revered nature, the wild gods, Hyjal, and Elune. They just became the dominant culture after the War of the Ancients.

You can argue the Kaldorei Empire isn’t night elf druid representation, but it definitely counts as night elf mage or priest representation and still serves as a backstory for Malfurion, Tyrande, Illidan, Jarod, Maiev, Shandris, etc. Who are all members of the modern Kaldorei cast. 90% of Kaldorei characters literally grew up as a part of that empire and a good chunk of their population still remember it.

Granted I’ll agree with you that it’d be nice if we got to see more stuff on the Satyr Wars or the War of Shifting Sands. But to say the Kaldorei Empire doesn’t count as Kaldorei representation/content seems like it is reaching.

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Despite being looked down on and suppressed by the Highborne, to the point where Elune Worship was in decline in the final years of the Empire.

I can argue that the Kaldorei Empire isn’t reorientation of the modern Night Elf… because it very clearly isn’t. It is an entire different culture, and it is a culture that was in place for a shorter period of time than the culture to overtake it during the Long Vigil.

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Nearly evert facet of modern Kaldorei culture originated from the Kaldorei Empire. Elune worship. Nature reverence. Wild god connections. The Sentinels. etc. I am grinding Nightfallen rep right now and fighting alongside the Moon Guard, who were a major component of the Kaldorei Empire. Would you consider modern Moon Guard to not be night elf representation?

Basically, when I sit down to make a night elf character and am working on their backstory one of the first things I ask myself is “Were they born before or after the War of the Ancients?” Then I ask how the Kaldorei Empire shaped their lives or the lives of their parents, because it is a massive, critical component to the history of the night elven people.

Because the Kaldorei Empire is still relevant to modern Kaldorei as a people. It is a part of their living memory and as such defines them as a people just as much as their current culture does.

If we got a short story about Tyrande when she was a child growing up in Suramar would you not consider it to be a night elf story? Because I sure would.

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All of these things were actually present in the Night Elves before Azshara came to power to expand into an empire.

As covered, Elune worship actually declined when Azshara came into power, and Elune worship, nature reverence, and Wild God connections were all actually present as far back as when the Night Elves were still Dark Trolls.

The Sentinels were actually only established after the Sundering.

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