You mean the Shen’dralar?
They aren’t the group I’m talking about.
Those are the only Highborne admitted to Night Elf society. Unlike the ones exiled long ago, they never were part of it until now.
I’m saying those Highborne who were not exiled by Malfurion and stayed in Night Elf society might not call themselves Highborne anymore.
That’s a set of zero unless you show a sign that any such exist at all. Class boundaries were very strict in the Imperial culture.
Their existence is established by the language.
The surviving Highborne joined Malfurion.
Some were exiled due to their magical abuse.
Therefore, some remained by clear understanding that not all were exiled. They could not call themselves Highborne anymore, they could have died over the intervening millennia, it isn’t clear. But, in relation to this.
Hence this statement remains incorrect. It does not say all of them took part and/or were exiled.
Lol, wow. That is some galaxy brain thinking. What have I been saying this entire thread? You have a problem with attributing motive. Even though I quote you specifically so people can reference the post I am responding too…
As far as I know, you are the only one who has pointed it out, because there is nothing to point out. If I was willfully trying to take you out of context, I just wouldn’t quote you at all. Instead, I quote those I respond to explicitly for transparency sake. If I was trying to be a dishonest and disingenuous person, I would be doing a bad job at it.
Maybe you just need to take a breath and stop assuming the worst of people?
And I consider it to be unnecessary. It floods the forums with huge blocks of text, which turns people away from the conversation.
And I refuted it. You resort to the unconscious bias talking point, which first, lacks any sort of scientific evidence. Second, assuming unconscious bias is even a thing, you still have to identify the racist behavior that stems from it. That would be the only way it can be identified, because otherwise, we have the issue you so adequately display of attributing motive. Where you pass judgments on people’s character based upon you own ill conceived notions regarding their thought process as if you were some mind reader. You’re not, you have no idea what my intentions are, what my thought processes are, you have no idea if I am actively trying to take you out of context or not (Even though I quote you specifically so people can reference back, so its pretty obvious that I am not) and you have no idea if the tropes we see in WoW is a result of Blizzard’s “unconscious bias” or not.
Once again, your claims are completely baseless.
Because humans can be that way, regardless of the pigment of their skin. Who would’a thunk it?
Not what I claimed, you used Aztec beliefs to make an assumption about Blizzard’s writing direction, I used Mayan beliefs to refute that and show that there is more nuance to the situation than you claim. You’re not stupid by any means, you seem to be mildly read on these topics, so I would be surprised if you actually didn’t know there were plumed serpents other than Quetzalcoatl, which might mean you were being willfully dishonest in that case. I wouldn’t assume such a thing of you though.
You know what, that’s my bad. Should have pursued more scholarly sources. Here.
“Not all horror stories are apocryphal.” (Kenaz, 2006)
"“Some lwa are “hotter” than others – that is to say, more forceful and more inclined toward violence… There is no reason for a solitary practitioner to call upon the services of Jan Zombi, Bawon Kriminel, Linglessou Basin-Sang, Bakalou Baka, or other fierce lwa.” (Kenaz, 2006).
“animal sacrifices are talked about in terms of reciprocal services and gift giving.” (Rosenthal, 1998).
“Animal sacrifice is performed at the edge of the pool, most often by Ogou himself in the head of a servitor… As a Lwa of the forge, fire is the preferred venue of offerings to Ogou.” ( Cellucien & Nixon 2016)
Rosenthal, Judy (1998) Possession, Ecstasy, and Law in Ewe Voodoo.
Cellucien, Joseph; Nixon, Cleophat (2016) Vodou in the Haitian Experience: A Black Atlantic Perspective.
Filan, Kenaz (2006) The Haitian Vodou Handbook: Protocols for Riding with the Lwa
So, lets stop pretending everything here is sunshine and rainbows. I am not saying Voudou is evil, but like all faiths, there is nuance and less savory elements of it. In my research, there is even conflict among Voodoo practitioners over the “right” and “wrong” way to practice it. Those who use possession as an excuse to abuse and manipulate others.
So when you are talking about false, negative portrayals of the faith, they are not even false. It’s a thing that happens, just like there are sects of homophobic Christians, and radical Muslims, and white supremist Odinists. It’s something that exists, pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t going to make anything any better. Nor is calling it a “racist caricature” makes it any less of something real.
No, we don’t know that. We just see different Tribes of Trolls with different Gods and practices.
Telling a story from the perspective of a colonialist isn’t in itself racist, has been my consistent point.
Where everything else comes into play has been refuting your baseless claims. Where you have attributed motive and accuse others of thought crime. Where you completely fail at the historical or cultural portrayal of certain beliefs and folklore.
You are not challenging any claims, you are making them. False claims, and you accuse people of racist and dishonest intention when they don’t agree with you.
And either weren’t practitioners of magic, or had to give up their practice or go into hiding under penalty of death, once Azshara was dethroned.
The Church was small and became less and less influential at the height of the Empire. Hardly the cultural and Governing power it is today and has been the last 10k years.
False, Azshara and the Highborne distanced herself from Hyjal. It wasn’t, at all, the influential practice it has become.
And ever since then, he had become an example of everything a Kaldorei shouldn’t be.
And a massive cultural shift to Elune and Druidism. There wasn’t just a ban of Arcane magic, it was a collective distain for it, ingrained into the faith that nearly all Kaldorei fell into as an all encompassing dogma. That is one reason I think the return of that practice was Blizzard, once again, taking a steamy dump on Kaldorei lore.
It doesn’t matter, we know that was the case. We are going into this quest knowing the Harpies are serving the forces corrupting the mountain.
You are the one who wants to see everything through the lens of race, and want to attribute a racist motive to literally everything.
Why are we pretending Blizzard hasn’t just ignored the Draenei since their introduction in TBC? It’s not a sign that Yrel got over something, it’s just Blizzard not wanting to bog down the story with drawn out character conflicts.
Yrel nor Turalyon “got over it” you are once again attributing motive, of which you have no notion.
Destroying the World Tree, which sustained their vitality, their connection to the Emerald Dream, as well was the largest population hub, is of significant devastation to the Kaldorei. That doesn’t become less true because you want to downplay what the Horde did that puts them in the same villainy camp as Arthas.
Nice job Ignoring what I could provide. Now who it taking who out of context? At least I quote you, you didn’t even quote me.
And Irenaus helped me find this
Now as far as infertility goes… There is one Kaldorei child in-game. It’s an infant, which only appeared after Cata, when Teldrassil was cleaned and plessed by Alexstraza. It’s in Moonglade.
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Drakynn was the one who originally called you out, actually…
I concurred with him,
You took exception with my assessment. And then proceeded to display the behavior we’d both said you would.
And here were are, weeks and dozens of posts later. You’re quoting increasingly short fragments of my posts while furiously ignoring everything else and occasionally also ignoring the fragments. Expressing your belief that claims of systemic discrimination in real life to be generally overblown. And now you’re leading your replies with “lol”’s. I’ve even shown you how to quote people in full and still condense the text so you can save people reading the forums the inconvenience of having to read entire paragraphs. You haven’t used it. I’ll give you examples, just to show how easy it is. Actually, it results in even LESS text on screen.
And yet you insist you don’t do this and argue in good faith. You are bad at hiding it. The more you post, the less able you are to hide it and the more transparent it becomes.
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Regarding claims that you "refuted" my argument. You didn't, you just stated you don't believe in the existence of unconscious/implicit bias or systemic discriminations. That's not "refuting" an argument. That's just denying anything even exists.
And I refuted it. You resort to the unconscious bias talking point, which first, lacks any sort of scientific evidence. Second, assuming unconscious bias is even a thing, you still have to identify the racist behavior that stems from it. That would be the only way it can be identified, because otherwise, we have the issue you so adequately display of attributing motive. Where you pass judgments on people’s character based upon you own ill conceived notions regarding their thought process as if you were some mind reader. You’re not, you have no idea what my intentions are, what my thought processes are, you have no idea if I am actively trying to take you out of context or not (Even though I quote you specifically so people can reference back, so its pretty obvious that I am not) and you have no idea if the tropes we see in WoW is a result of Blizzard’s “unconscious bias” or not.
Once again, your claims are completely baseless.
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My claims aren’t baseless. They’re rooted in decades of peer reviewed studies that you simply refuse to acknowledge. Because you deny the existence of discrimination and think it generally overblown, but have no actual “scientific” criticism of your own. So you just deny it.
This is why I’m not interested in actually convincing you of anything so much as exposing you by just responding to your posts, while providing actually open minded people who understand unconscious/implicit bias, understand that a history of impacts of systemic discrimination has left an impact on the media we consume, and do have an interest in examining themselves and the media we consume.
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Regarding how I'm being unfair by somehow assigning any intent at all to Blizzard when you know they *really* intended something else...
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Only if you ignore the history of the portrayal of these peoples in popular media and how it is related to race.
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Not what I claimed, you used Aztec beliefs to make an assumption about Blizzard’s writing direction, I used Mayan beliefs to refute that and show that there is more nuance to the situation than you claim. You’re not stupid by any means, you seem to be mildly read on these topics, so I would be surprised if you actually didn’t know there were plumed serpents other than Quetzalcoatl, which might mean you were being willfully dishonest in that case. I wouldn’t assume such a thing of yog to me.u though.
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I claime that Blizzard was just absentmindedly drawing off Quetzalcoatl imagery and associating him with human sacrifice as part of some generic Aztec stereotyping. You countered with the claim that Blizzard was putting much more thought into it and actually intended to reference the much more obscure Kukulkan. Because apparently you don’t think Blizzard is capable of doing things absentmindedly or that anything they produce can have unintended consequences or implications.
So if the issue here is about assigning intent, you’re the one making much larger leaps as to what Blizzard did/didn’t intend.
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Regarding sensationalized depictions of Vodou/Voodoo in media and how they get accepted as fact, when the reality is rather far different.
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Of course Vodou isn’t all “sunshine and rainbows”. I acknowledged that much in a previous post. And yeah, people can do bad within Vodou, but to blame the Lwa for the bad they do wrong.
Nowhere in those quotes you provided is anything supporting your claim that it’s just being factually/historically accurate to depict the Lwa (and their analogues) as evil and having people , as you said, “commit various atrocities in their names. Including human sacrifice.”
In fact, I own that Haitian Vodou Handbook. Your first quote, which is cropped, is on page 5. Here’s the full paragraph, for context.
Like I said before, it’s not just me whose words you crop to rob them of context. The author also did an introduction in which they call out the demonization of Vodou born of ignorance and racism, thanks, in no small part, to negative portrayals in media…
So yeah, even the book you’re drawing your quotes from is pointing out the evils of Vodou makes it a point to state that these tales of “evils” are really the inaccurate perception/portrayal of Vodou born of racism and ignorance fearing what they did not understand.
Yes animals are sacrificed as part of many Vodou ceremonies- then cleaned, cooked, and eaten as part of a ceremonial meal. Human sacrifice and cannibalism and “evils” you keep insisting on aren’t a part of it. Similarly, the burnt offerings made Ogou/Ogun are inanimate objects, not people and live animals.
The idea isn’t that there can be no negative portrayals of individuals or aspects of any religion. It’s recognition of the fact that in popular media, certain religions have been portrayed almost entirely negatively/inaccurately, and that these portrayals are not rooted in reality, but in various forms of discrimination. If you’re really interested in presenting some kind of historical accuracy, a more nuanced, faithful, and multi-faceted representation would be more appropriate.
I think there’s no better example than Bwonsamdi. Of all the stuff that WoW’s pulled from real world Vodou, Bwonsamdi is far and away the most obvious reference. He’s also the one thing in WoW Voodoo that’s most faithful to real world Vodou. One of the more faithful adaptations of Baron Samedi in popular fiction in general. He’s hardly all sunshine and rainbows, but neither is he villainized or portrayed as some dark, savage, and evil entity that drives people to commit atrocities in his name. And wouldn’t you know it- the result is an engaging, more nuanced and incredibly popular character. Easily the most popular Loa so far.
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Regarding WoW's general portrayal of Trolls/Voodoo and how it can change over time.
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Dark Spear revered the exact same Loa as the Gurubashi and many of the same as the Zandalari and vice versa. And the Revantusk revere the same Loa as the Amani. The Zandalari revere many of the same Loa.
Who serves what Loa doesn’t matter. The majority of Trolls are described in WoW as collectively savage, dirty, warmongering, and deserving of being killed/displaced without remorse. And even among those Trolls that are called out as being less so, their savagery and dirtiness is still played up. The main exception being BfA and the Zandalari, which I’ve repeatedly called out as a move in the right direction.
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Akiyass claims I just call everyone who disagrees with me racist and dishonest and doesn't think it's possible to address the topic of racism or colonialism in a story without being critical of it in the narrative.
I don’t accuse everyone of being racist and having dishonest intent when they disagree with me. I haven’t called Zerde racist or dishonest. I haven’t called Faelia racist or dishonest. I haven’t called Armedis racist or dishonest either. I definitely haven’t accused anyone of thought crime, much less called for any kind of consequences be levied against them.
I haven’t even called Blizzard racist or dishonest. I’ve repeatedly stated that I think their mistakes were unintended and have in fact, I’ve repeatedly pointed out times when I thought Blizzard’s decisions were only not honest, but ahead of the curve in some areas.
None of which changes the fact that elements of a work can indeed be racist/colonialist or push a racist/colonialist narrative. Not because the story merely features the concept of racism/colonialism, but in how it’s framed (negatively/positively/neutrally/etc). And there’s a long history of these tropes/narratives being framed as acceptable to the point where people continue reusing them without a second thought as to their origins or implications or the consequences. Even within the same work.
For example, WoW will have us go to one land and then proceed to slaughter/conquer/displace the natives and tell us it’s good/right, but then have us go to another place and slaughter/conquer/displace another group of natives and it’s bad/wrong. The message then becomes, not that going to other places and slaughtering/conquering/displacing peoples is right/wrong, but rather, dependent entirely on who’s lands you go to.
For the record, I haven’t called you racist either, although I have disagreed with you and called many of your arguments dishonest. Some of your arguments, I have pointed out were legitimate.
I also do challenge your claims, on the rare occasions when you make them, but most of the time you don’t actually make claims. Your arguments mostly amount to, “nuhuh” because you outright reject the existence of well documented concepts like systemic discrimination and think it’s impossible for Blizzard to do anything unintentionally.
You’re being incredibly defensive about the fact that I even acknowledge the very existence of racism or racist tropes and accusing me of making accusations I never actually make.
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Regarding whether the Night Elves' past in the Kaldorei empire counts as Night Elf lore.
Practicing magic wasn’t a requirement to be a citizen of the old Kaldorei empire. Lots of Kaldorei didn’t practice arcane magic. Many did. And even if it was banned for a time, modern Kaldorei society does allow arcane magic and some practice, while others do not.
Neither was the Church of Elune some rinky dink operation. One of the first things Azshara did as part of her expansion included building temples for Elune such as Lathar’lazal. The breadth of the Kaldorei Empire at its height is described on the same page as “”Networks of luminescent causeways, limned b the silver Light of Elune, radiated out across the far corners of Kalimdor”. Azshara distanced herself from religion, but the church was never described as powerless or without influence- especially not since it ended up taking over the Kaldorei after Azshara was deposed.
Cenarius, Malfurion, and their followers originally resided and studied in Valsharah, not Mt Hyjal, and Valsharah was a part of the Kaldorei Empire. Malfurion grew up outside Suramar, which was also part of the Kaldorei Empire.
Shifting power dynamics/laws in later centuries doesn’t erase the fact that not just Illidan- but also Tyrande, Malfurion, and many still living Kaldorei were all members of the Kaldorei Empire.
Accusing Blizzard of “taking a big steaming dump on Kaldorei lore,” doesn’t just acknowledge that portrayal of races -namely Night Elves- in WoW can/does change over time, but is also assigning motives/intent to Blizzard.
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Regarding Thisalee Crow's feelings about Harpies...
I don’t attribute racism to everything. For example, I haven’t brought up racism in our discussion about whether the Kaldorei empire counts as Night Elf lore. Or the consequences of aging. Or whether or not Night Elves suffered the most significant genocide since the Scourging of Lordaeron.
The issue is that you are unable to acknowledge racism in anything. Not even a fictional character of one race that calls out other fictional races as not being equal.
And whenever someone does point out that something’s racist, you feel compelled to jump into the thread to proclaim it isn’t; and even if it is, it’s not that bad; and even if it is that bad; it’s not on purpose; and even if it was on purpose, it’s just stating the truth.
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Whether or not Yrel and Turalyon got over stuff...
We have Blizzard giving attention to the Draenei by having a named character who was a victim of Orcish genocide stating her motivations for joining the Light Mother and converting/eradicating the Orcs, and not once does she bring it up.
She got over it. Turalyon got over it. You’re the one trying to divine what’s really going on in the heart/mind and how they really feel, with complete disregard for what they say and do, in the narrative.
And you keep saying I have a problem with attributing motive.
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Regarding who suffered the most significant genocide since the scouring of Lordaeron, and as such, is deserving of more content in game.
I’m not downplaying what the Horde did. It was terrible. I’m not going to try and argue that what Sylvanas did wasn’t terrible or act like she was right. Or try to argue that what happened wasn’t genocide.
I will, however, point out that your claim that the Night Elves have it the worst is not true. It was just given the most gravitas in BfA. And more in Shadowlands.
The Night Elves had already lost their unnaturally granted vitality at the end of WC3. They still have access to the Emerald Dream even without the tree, as the HQ of the Druids is in Moonglade. Gnomes lost their capital city and all their lands. Tauren and Darkspear Trolls never even had a capital city before losing all their lands being driven to extinction. Night Elves still had enough people to retake their lands pretty much all on their own. Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls all needed help and still don’t control as much territory as the Night Elves do.
You’re claim what Night Elves went through was categorically the worst genocide is just an attempt to try and justify why Night Elves need more content, but not Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls- Because acknowledging their more significant losses would mean you’d have to admit Blizzard places greater weight on the suffering of Night Elves.
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Regarding the aging, health, and fertility of the Night Elves.
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I actually missed it. It being several days between posts and all. My apologies. But now we have some stuff to actually discuss…
And Irenaus helped me find this
First off, Night Elves don’t naturally live for thousands of years. We’ve never seen Night Elves aging without interference from some outside magical force like the Moonwell or Aspect blessings.
Malfurion isn’t in any way presented as becoming a creaky old man either. He literally just felt a twinge and remembered he wasn’t immortal anymore. Similarly, Tyrande’s faint creases are described as the result of TRUE aging. Not accelerated aging.
There’s no reason to assume Shalyr’s illness as a complication of aging or a direct result of losing Alextraxtraza’s blessing. She’s just mortal now. Mortal people get sick. Gnomes get sick. Trolls get sick. Tauren get sick.
The thing going on here isn’t that Night Elves are magically aging or getting sick more often. It’s that they were once magically immune aging/getting sick, and now they’re just aging and getting sick at the same rate as anyone else. And there’s some angst about that fact because they’re used to not ever aging or getting sick at all.
Also, you’re basing the claims of Night Elf struggles with infertility on the fact that there’s only one Night Elf infant model in game? No actual mention of infertility or anything? Just your methodology that we can tell how fertile any race is/isn’t based on the number of infant models found in game?
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Depends on what we mean by naturally. But it was confirmed that’s the current state of all elves, irrespective of magic.
One similarity between night elves, high elves, and blood elves has only recently come about. The night elves sacrificed their immortality and much of their power at the end of the Third War. Thus, all elves are now mortal and have comparable lifespans that can extend as long as several thousand years.
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By naturally I mean without having had the influence of magic/technology or some other external means. Elves of all kinds in WoW have always drawn off external sources (Well of Eternity, Moonwells, Sunwells, Dragon Aspects, Arcane leylines, etc) to sustain their long lives/immortality.
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Well Elves are inherently evolved via influence by magic.
But without continuous feeding from external sources, thousands of years is still their given lifespan.
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Fair enough. In either case, what we’re seeing is not some kind of similarly magically induced aging. In fact it’s explicitly called out in Tyrande’s case as true aging.
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I agree, was just clarifying that point.
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Well, he is probably the only person on this forum who is more bias and self entitled than you.
I simply disagree with you. I didn’t display any of the attributed behaviors you said.
Again, I quote small parts to trim the fat, not to take you out of context. The forums have built in systems that expand the quote so it can be read in full context. If I wanted to take you out of context, I wouldn’t give people that option.
Once again, you are baselessly attributing motive, and it’s because when you can’t win a debate, you have to find a way to illegitimize your opposition. Otherwise you have to face the fact that you might be wrong, and you are far too cowardly for that.
Actually it is, because that is a claim you are making without any supporting evidence. As long as you fail to prove it, it is easy to refute.
Name one.
You have failed to show a single shred of evidence.
Quetzalcoatl is not the only plumed serpent. So that is a completely baseless claim, and that was the point I have been making since you brought it up.
Actually you didn’t… You were refuting any claim that Voodoo can be have any negative aspects, and any depiction of those negative aspects is somehow insensitive. Those quotes were to prove what I had said the post before.
The context doesn’t change the quote. I never made the claim that Voodoo wasn’t nuanced. I simply stood by the claim that it has negative ones as well, and the Handbook seems to agree with me. You are the one being disingenuous with your depictions.
But that doesn’t erase the negative aspects that are still present. It is as if you are saying that just because something was villainized in the past, that criticism or negative portrayals of it is off limits for all time. Sorry, that’s not how this works.
Not every time. Sometimes they are burned alive, a claim that you said was completely fiction, but turned out to be true. This is the whole point, you are trying to completely white wash voodoo in it’s entirety, and utterly refuse to say that Voodoo can exist in a villainized context without it being racist bigotry. That is just not true.
Because the Dark Spear are a Gurubashi Tribe, or at least were.
Because the Revantusk are an Amani Tribe.
First of all, one can say that is from the perspectives of Horde/Alliance races.
Second of all, that could be just a cultural signifier for trolls, who draw inspiration from, but were never meant to be representative of real life ethnic groups.
My point has been, consistently, that one can tell a fictional story in a fictional world, with fictional races, drawing inspiration from real life, without it being 100% accurate because those things don’t exist in that fictional world as they do in the real one, without it being racist, or coded, or glorifying imperialism.
Your behavior says otherwise. You know what, maybe you don’t. What you certainly do, is you accuse everyone who disagrees with you as being disingenuous and willfully dishonest. You literally opened the gate with personal attacks, of which have no baring what-so-ever.
And you defiantly do accuse people of thought crime. The entire premise of unconscious bias is thought crime.
They aren’t well documented. It’s a social theory. It is explored as a possibility, but for every scholarly source about it, there is just as many criticizing it.
Well, that’ll happen when you openly attack my moral character.
But it was if you wanted to be Highborne.
It was in decline.
Hyjal is within the boarders of the Kaldorei empire, but it was described as a place Azshara actively avoided, is the point. Which you always seem to miss.
An entire reformation of Kaldorei culture does though.
Yes you do.
It depends if it’s actually legitimate. I have NEVER said, EVER, that racism is “not that bad”
Again, with your low blows to my moral character. Are you really so pathetic?
The fact that she is doing it is sign enough that she wasn’t over it.
Turalyon didn’t get over it either.
Yes, you do.
Yes you are.
Just another way of saying “I am not downplaying what the Horde did… BUT…”
Yeah, they went without it for 7 years until Teldrassil was blessed again, and several of them DIED in that time
Stop downplaying what the Horde did.
It is.
I never said they did, I said they live for thousands of years. Way to once again side step the point. A race so long lived should not feel the effects of aging after 7 years.
THE BOOK LITERALLY SAYS IT IS
Yes it is
Its more than most of your own flimsy arguments.
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Others have pointed out that you intentionally crop the quotes of others, robbing them of context and ignoring the parts you don’t like. You even crop the texts of books you quote and your refusal to post links or provide sources- like when you try to argue the evils of Vodou. So it’s not just me you do it to and it’s not just me who’s called you out on it.
You say it’s to cut down on space, at which point I displayed (twice) how you can quote me and others in full and actually take up even less space. I also invited you to continue the discussion further on Discord (again, that’s Tamani#2391), where we won’t even have to quote one another. You’ve refused both offers.
Averta and Iranus also pointed out your reluctance to back up your claims with actual quotes. Nobody’s actually called you anything, accused you of thought crimes, or attributed motives to you. I’ve gone out of my way to point out that I don’t don’t consider you, Blizzard, or anyone who disagrees with me a villain or a racist. Yet you insist I am calling people these things.
And you go on to outright call people who disagree with you cowardly and self entitled, while also asking them how pathetic they are.
You acknowledge it exists in Social Science as “theory” -as if 99% of concepts in science aren’t theory. Gravity’s a theory. Spacetime is a theory. Evolution through natural selection is a theory. And you clearly know of the scholarly sources supporting said theory.
So why are you asking me to provide these articles regarding the existence of Unconscious Bias when you and I both know they exist? You know the evidence exists and you know where to find it. Your only reason for not accepting them is because you claim “there are just as many criticizing it”. Oh, and your claim that acknowledging the existence unconscious biases amounts to “thoughtcrime”.
Which I don’t think is a claim that actually has any evidence to back it up. So let’s see these just as numerous peer reviewed studies debunking the existence of Unconscious Bias.
Quetzolcoatal is, however, the most well known plumed serpent and commonly used -if not an expy, then by name- in the majority of pop culture references to Mesoamerican divinities. It’s not baseless.
In fact, in order to dismiss the claim, you’ve chosen to either just deny it, or posit that Blizzard couldn’t be referencing any specific feathered serpent because they were actually specifically referencing Kukulkan- which is itself a contradictory statement.
Yes, the animals killed in Vodou sacrifices are eaten all the time, and most definitely are not burned alive. Your quote about Ogou/Ogun contains no references to burning animals alive and the only evidence you have of such a practice is people parroting some horror movie site- which itself contains numerous other mistakes.
Then when shown that human sacrifice and such atrocities were not a thing in Vodou, you started trying to claim it there WAS evil and cited all these crazy claims about malicious arson and burning animals alive.
And when asked for evidence to back up these false claims, you quoted a horror movie website. When pressed for something more substantive, your actual book references didn’t mention these activities either. In fact, one of your book quotes explicitly points out that the history of demonizing Vodou comes -not from an accurate portrayal of Vodou- but from fictitious facsimiles thereof, rooted in racism and ignorance. You left those sentences out, though.
All the while, you’ve been backing off the whole “atrocities” and “human sacrifice”, to the point where you’re Now just trying to get me to admit to the “negative aspects’', using such examples as: “The dark, destructive winter that must come to pass before the sun’s rebirth.”.
I’ll totally acknowledge that Vodou has negative aspects that are not evil/malicious/atrocities, similar to how the death that accompanies winter precedes the renewed life of spring. Sure. But Vodou’s negative aspects do not include atrocities, let alone human sacrifice, cannibalism, arson, and burning animals alive.
These untrue narratives, among others, are indeed drawn from negative portrayals of Vodou/Voodoo in pop culture steeped in a history of ignorance and racism. They’ve been so pervasive and gone unchallenged for so long to the point where people take them as being based in accuracy and unthinkingly perpetuate them.
And now here I am trying to explain to you that real world Vodou doesn’t promote the kind of things you think it does while you try to argue they do using examples taken from negative fictional portrayals in popular media. All while you deny the existence of racism and unconscious bias too!
It doesn’t make anyone who falls for this stuff a racist bigot. It just shows how ideas born of racism can be perpetuated through society without people noticing. That’s why I haven’t called Blizzard or anyone else a bigot or a racist. Because I don’t think they’re utilizing these tropes on purpose but because these tropes remain pervasive and people don’t really critique them the way they do other representations.
And I don’t think the answer is a portrayal of Trolls, WoW Voodoo, or even Haitian Vodou that was all sunshine and rainbows. I’ve never asked for that. In fact, I’ve repeatedly called out BfA’s Zandalar and Bwonsamdi as moves in the right direction, and they definitely aren’t portrayed as all sunshine and rainbows.
So you say the portrayal of the trolls it depends on which loa the Trolls serve, but every single Troll tribe revere the same general loa and are all at some point described as dark, savage, evil, etc.So it actually of doesn’t matter what loa they deal with. Gurubashi, Amani, Faraki, Drakaari, even Zandalari. It doesn’t matter what Troll tribe we’re talking about or even what loa the tribes serve. All of them have gotten portrayed as warmongering dark savage cannibals serving dark savage powers whenever WoW wants us not to feel bad about killing them. And sometimes not even then.
And it’s played completely straight. In universe and out of universe.
And there were lots of non-Highborne Night Elves who were citizens of the Kaldorei Empire. Practicing magic wasn’t a requirement to be a citizen of the Kaldorei Empire. Their time spent living as part of the Kalodrei Empire is relevant to Night Elf lore.
Nowhere is that stated the Church of Elune was in decline. Azshara built temples to Elune and the empire at its most glorious was described as ”Networks of luminescent causeways, limned by the silver Light of Elune, radiated out across the far corners of Kalimdor”. Tyrande was a priestess of Elune in Surumar while she was a member of the Kaldorei Empire. Her life while living under the Kaldorei empire is relevant to Night Elf lore.
And Malfurion did not dwell on Mt Hyjal during the time of the Kaldorei Empire. He lived near Surumar and when he went to study under Cenarius, he did so in Valsharah, which was a part of the Kaldorei Empire. Malfurion was a member of the Kaldorei Empire and did not live outside of it. His life as part of the Kaldorei Empire is relevant to his lore and Night Elf lore.
Which underwent another reformation that now allows the practice of arcane magic. So now any Night Elf (Highborne or not) can practice arcane magic. It is relevant to Night Elf lore.
I haven’t attributed to racism at all in regard to whether or not Kaldorei Empire lore counts as Night Elf lore, your claims about Night Elf genocide, or anything regarding your false claims that Night Elves suffer from greater rates of advanced aging, disease, and infertility than Gnomes/Tauren/Darkspear Trolls. So in this very post, those are several examples in which I haven’t attributed any racism to anything.
You, however, continue to refuse to acknowledge racism. That’s why you haven’t gotten to the “racism is not that bad” part. You haven’t even acknowledged its existence. Although now I am curious as to what you do consider legitimate instances of racism or racist ideas/comments/actions in WoW.
They both got over it. You haven’t gotten over it.
You have absolutely no numbers to back up any of your claims that Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls didn’t experience a genocide just as significant, if not more so than the Night Elves did within the same space of time you specified.
I want the Night Elves and the Gnomes, and Tauren, and Dark Spear trolls to all have their genocide treated with equal gravity by the narrative and for them to receive similar amounts of focus in the game as a result. It was terrible and nobody should downplay what happened to them.
I’ve never made light of the Night Elf genocide. You, however, have made light of the genocide experienced by Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls by claiming every flu season was a genocide for them. You’re the one downplaying the suffering of the others and playing up the suffering of Night Elves and then trying to use it as a justification for why they need more content, but the other races don’t because you don’t think their genocides were as bad/worse (they were).
A twinge followed by a bit of some existential angst and the faintest appearance of lines at the corners of one’s eyes (for someone whose been graying since childhood) aren’t a stretch for people who were already mature adults and have experienced 7 of TRUE aging.
What the book literally says is that Night Elves “…the Night Elves have begun experiencing afflictions they have only witnessed in others. There had been a few other deaths, and Shalasyr’s showed there will be more and more as time went on,”
Sharlyn got sick because others -mortals- can get sick. It’s a thing they’ve observed in these other mortal races. Getting sick and dying from disease is a thing that happens to mortals because they’re mortals. Getting sick and dying from it is not a special thing that happens to Night Elves, let alone in greater amounts.
Just making sure, because in addition to the Night Elf infant in Moonglade you mentioned, there’s another in Shattrath. And another in Nagrand.
This means there’s actually more Night Elf infants in game than there are Gnome and Darkspear Troll infants. Also, more Night Elf infants than Blood Elf, Draenei, or Goblin infants in game.
So using your own argument, you have to admit that Night Elves have fewer issues with infertility than all those races. Would you like to change the basis of your argument or double down?
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People who already agree with you. That doesn’t make it true. Again, I quote things to specifically provide context, not to dismiss it.
I am literally the only one here who cited scholarly articles, and also quoted direct passages from novels, along with page numbers.
Right, how pathetic are you?
In the layman’s context, not in the scientific context. Please, ashiest neckbeards have been using this copout for years. The literature that exists on unconscious bias barely has enough evidence and peer review to be considered a hypothesis. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but it is unproven, mostly because there is no good way to actually prove it, because again, it’s just the widespread attribution of motive based on people’s skin color. Historically, that’s just been called racism.
Really? Prove it. Because last I checked, Kukulkan is in the game SMITE, and Quetzolcoaltal isn’t. I don’t think there is any shred of evidence to suggest that one is more or less popular than the other in pop culture.
No no no, again, you are willfully misrepresenting my point. I never said Blizzard was referencing Kukulkan. I said they COULD have been. The whole point was to counter that Hakkar was inspired from Quetzolcoatal, when he could have been inspired by any number of plumed serpent from mythology, or more like, was not inspired by any particular one. So, holding Hakkar up to the standard of Quetzolcoaltal is stupid.
“… Jean-Zandor, who is considered violent and irascible. A short man, hopping on one leg, he hunts men in order to consume them. Or he may throw himself from the peak of a palm tree onto unsuspecting passers-by. If such a possession occurs during a ceremony, the priests and other participants will try to end it immediately, before the possessed suffers harm.” (Owusu, 2000)
“The Mondonge-Mussai-Loa, gods who came from the Congo area, achieved a dubious fame in the Voodoo cult. They demand live dogs as offerings, and bite off their ears to suck out their blood.” (Owusu, 2000)
“It’s not likely that most people would want to take up some of their traditional practices – such as tearing apart a chicken with the teeth…” (Owusu, 2000)
Owusu, Heike (2000) Voodoo Rituals: a user’s guide. Sterling Publishing Co. New York, N.Y.
It depends on the Loa. Just because you may not have adopted these practices, doesn’t mean they do not exist and are actively being performed as we speak. Again, I am not trying to bad mouth or villainize Voodoo. All religions have their problems, and you might just be bias.
Yes, claims supported by scholarly sources that you have yet to discredit.
Yes it does.
It exist. YOU may not promote that. Those who you may know who practice voodoo may not do that. That doesn’t mean it’s not a thing. Not all Christians are homophobes… But are we going to pretend the Westboro Baptist Church doesn’t exist? Come on now.
This sort of thing is a matter of debate in voodoo communities, especially in Haiti. There are all sorts of conflict over the “right” way to practice voodoo. Seemingly for very obvious reasons.
The Atal’Hakkari and the Blood Trolls prove otherwise.
Not the Darkspear, or Shatterspear. Not even all the Tribes we actively attack are portrayed villainously. Zul’Jinn was portrayed sympathetically and rightfully vengeful. We are outright told that the Sandfury developed hostility because of outsiders, like ogres, Goblins and wastewanderers, encroaching on their territory and seizing natural resources.
More baseless claims.
You mean, like every WoW race? Almost every single playable race in WoW is a collage of different real world cultural influences. Yet not a single one is meant to be representative of those ethnic groups. Trolls included.
But if you wanted to be HIghborne, you practiced magic. After the fall of the empire, the entire culture was willfully and violently changed. The entire racial identity of the Kaldorei was reshaped.
Literally does in Chronicle Vol. 1. I don’t have the book in front of me, but the passage about Azshara is like 2-4 pages. It literally says that the Sisterhood of Elune was becoming less and less prevalent on their society. That is punctuated by the name change of Elune’dris to Zin’Azshari.
It literally couldn’t be less relevant. He wasn’t a highborne. He was some forest hobo. Just being present for something doesn’t make you relevant.
As I already mentioned, bringing the arcane back to the Night Elves was a big steamy dump on night elf lore. It still doesn’t make the Kaldorei empire relevant. The culture that existed at that time is dead and gone and not returning. In no way does that history reflect modern Kaldorei in anyway, shape or form.
I literally quoted the passages in the novels that prove it. So it’s not false.
I have literally, never said that in my entire life. So, once again, you are attributing motive, and directly assaulting my moral character by doing so. It is absolutely disgusting.
Saying “Racism is not present in this particular instance” is not the same as saying “Racism doesn’t exist at all” lol
In terms of in-universe racism? Or racism being objectivly evident in Blizzard writing and world building?
No, neither. You can only come to that conclusion if you attribute motive, which neither of us can, despite you seemingly feeling as if you are some kind of mind reader.
because numbers, generally, are not given. What I can say, definitively, is the genocide the Night Elves have faced are firstly, the most recent, and secondly, the most lasting. The consequences of it will continue until another World Tree is blessed. We have a precedent already set, that such a thing will not be given unless the (Now depowered) Dragon Aspects are impressed with a significant feat of… Something. The first time was the vanquishing of the Legion, the second time was the purification of Teldrassil. Even if the Kaldorei can achieve something like those again, it is unclear if the Dragon Aspects are capable of helping them to the degree that is necessary.
Your refusal to acknowledge the gravity of that is making light of Night Elf genocide at the hands of the Horde.
7 years, for a people who live thousands of years (as mortals) is nothing. It’s not just some back pain or smile lines… Kaldorei have died in that short period of time.
It is, fundamentally, a supernatural problem. It is not “normal” aging and illness. It is a backlash to thousands of years immortality. 7 years is not a long enough time to show these kinds of issues.
When Teldrassil was still alive, that might have been true. Not true now. Because it is attached to the Aspect’s Blessing.
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You continue to chop others’ quote into snippets, robbing them of context. You continue to deny instances of systemic racism, unconscious bias in general and in WoW in particular. You remain reluctant to provide scholarly sources and the few non-scholarly sources produced by others you have tried to use to back up your arguments either call out the existence of racism in portrayals of Vodou or engage in it themselves.
And now you’ve started calling people who don’t agree with you. The more you post, the more the nature of your conduct is revealed.
The whole “X is only a theory,” argument is not the invention of “Atheist neckbeards” but rather a religious fundamentalist conservative talking point intending to debunk well recognized scientific theories by relying on the layman’s understanding of “theory” as mere conjecture without significant evidence to back it up. Similar when they say that no theory has been “proven” correct- relying on layman’s understanding of “unproven” to mean something is false. But that’s not how science works. Outside of mathematics, science doesn’t use “proof” either, it uses “evidence”.
And you’ve already made it clear that you’re aware of the wealth of peer reviewed evidence that does exist supporting the theory- with your refutation being based on the false claim that there’s just as much peer reviewed studies refuting it. That and the fact that you oppose it on principle, as you consider the very idea threatening on the unfounded basis of it being “thought crime”.
You’re the only one claiming that these anti-Unconscious Bias studies exist. So, again, let’s see those studies.
Blizzard could take some notes from SMITE, as they are not doing the same thing.
Smite calls Kulukanh out by name and featured as one of many other lesser known Mayan deities. Furthermore, his presence is not reduced to “evil deity that demands human sacrifice”. The many other Mayan deities featured in the games and their followers don’t get framed as dirty savages engaging in cannibalism and sacrifice either.
I never claimed Blizzard intentionally referenced Quetzalcoatl. You’re the only one claiming Blizzard intentionally referenced any specific feathered serpent.
I argued that by reducing it’s representation of Mesoamerican religion to only the best known shallow stereotypes of step pyramids, feathered serpents and the bloodthirsty savage jungle tribes that collect human sacrifices- Blizzard unintentionally perpetuated the continued narrative in which representations of Mesoamerican religion begins and end with Quetzalcoatl and bloody human sacrifice.
It was actually Ireanus that produced relevant quotes about Night elf aging- and they didn’t support your claims of accelerated aging, infertility, and other complications. You also never present any quotes when he asked you for examples of me calling you or Blizzard racist. You still haven’t produced any “scholarly sources” questioning the theory of Unconscious Bias despite claiming they exist as well.
And regarding your “scholarly article” about the evils and atrocities in Vodou….
When it comes to the rituals/spells described- as none of these are actual Vodou rituals! It draws from all over the magickal/neo-pagan/new age map and even starts talking about Yoga poses, pentagrams and runes- none of which are related to actual Vodou practices. They’re basically taking a bunch of unrelated magickal practices and terms, repackaging them with lurid false tales of dark spirits and bloody sacrifice, and sells it to people who don’t know any better.
None of this stuff you’re talking about exists as a “matter of debate in Vodou communities”. These tales, cannibalism, human sacrifice, burning animals alive, and other evils that you’re so convinced exist in Vodou are the products of inaccurate/negative portrayals and demonization; born of decades of racism and ignorance.
Just because the Westboro Baptist church have their own views, it doesn’t mean that people who practice Vodou must therefore engage in cannibalism, human sacrifice, burning chickens alive, and all the other things you accuse practicioners of doing as a part of the faith.
Atal’ai and Blood Trolls aren’t the only Trolls that get treated as warmongering savages that practice cannibalism and human sacrifice for their dark gods. All the troll tribes have gotten similar treatment- even the Zandalari, Shatterspear, and Darkspear at various points.
The Shatterspear were portrayed as violent savages who sided with Garrosh and later Sylvanas to slaughter Night Elves when it came time for them to do anything in game. Even the Darkspear, who are obsentivel the “good ones” end up getting described repeatedly as savage, and Vol’jin’s savagery, bad diction, and bad hygiene are highlighted in the game.
Again, the issue is not the references/ethnic coding. But the repeated tendency to combine references/coding combined with the historically racist tropes and narrative function. And they do so in a way they don’t do it with the other playable races. The kind of treatment is reserved for races like Centaur, Drust, or Gnolls- who the game then invite us to continue genociding/displacing without it being treated with nearly as much gravity or criticism.
One doesn’t have to actually downplay the impact of systemic racism when you refuse to acknowledge it exists and don’t even admit to any individual instances of it.
I’ll make it easy and let you pick any instance of in-universe or in terms of Blizzard’s world building that you can see. Because until then, you still haven’t acknowledged any. Until then, we remain at the “It isn’t racism…” clause.
Being a Highborn was not a requirement to be a member of Kaldorei Empire and many living Kaldorei, including its modern leaders, were members of the Kaldorei empire. The history of the Kaldorei Empire is relevant to modern Kaldorei.
We’ll wait for you or someone to find the the relevant book quotes so we can continue this tangent.
Also, Zin’Azshari got it’s name changed when she became queen, which was before she went on to build other temples to Elune and before the Kaldorei Empire under her name was referred to as ”Networks of luminescent causeways, limned by the silver Light of Elune, radiated out across the far corners of Kalimdor” (page 96).
Being a Highborne was not a requirement to be a member of the Kaldorei Empire. The Kaldorei Empire contained a great many Kaldorei that weren’t Highborne, as well as Kaldorei who revered the Ancients such as Cenarius. Malfurion was not some societal outcast. The Kaldorei Empire is relevant to his lore.
The arcane traditions once pracrticed by the Highborne (and non-Highborne) Kaldorei of the Kaldorei Empire are once more a part of modern Kaldorei society. In fact, many of the most prominent modern mages training these modern arcanists are former-citizens of the Kaldorei Empire. It is relevant to modern Kaldorei Lore.
I’m not attributing motive. I’m describing their words and actions. You’re the one saying their actions belie and contradict their true feelings and that they haven’t gotten over it, when nothing they’ve said or done suggests otherwise.
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But numbers were given in terms of Gnomes. And even when numbers weren’t given, Tauren and Darkspear Trolls were both described as being on the verge of extinction. The Night Elves are indeed the most recent, but you didn’t say “most recent”. You specified “since the scourging of Lordaeron”.
You also can’t claim it’s the consequences are the longest lasting, as the events occurred barely a year or two ago in-universe.
I’m not refusing the gravity of the Night Elves’ suffering. The Horde’s genocide
at Teldrassil was horrible, not justified, and I’ve pointed out before that several times.
The gravity of the situation faced by Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls is the same, if not greater, but Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls have not been given the same presence in the narrative. But you keep trying to make up new reasons why what the Night Elves went through was worse- reasons which either apply just as much to the other races or simply aren’t true.
The book specifically described the aging as “true aging” and compared what the Night Elves go through as being like what they’ve seen in other mortal races. So apparently 7 years of what the book calls “true aging” is enough for Malfurion to feel a “twinge” (the text never mentions his back) and “fine lines” for Tyrande. The only Kaldorei whose cause of death we’ve been able to specifically cite died because she was no longer magically immune to disease like any mortal, not from unnaturally old age as a result of any kind of accelerated aging process as you claim.
You make up claims, but the books don’t actually back you up. In fact, they contradict you.
So you’re backing off your argument that the number of infants is evidence of your claims of infertility. Cool.
Night Elves lost their magical protection from aging, disease, etc back at the end of WC3, not with the burning of Teldrassil over a decade later. So again, you’ve got nothing to back up your claims about the Night Elves’ unique struggle with infertility compared to Gnomes, Tauren, or Darkspear Trolls.
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No I dont. As long as you keep repeating your same nonsense, I am going to answer you the same way.
I quote people specifically for the sake of transparency and providing context. It is literally the only reason I do it. Again, you cannot attribute motive to me, you are not a mind reader.
I am not saying it was… failing to recognize the use of the word theory in the scientific context vs the layman’s context is. You can’t even keep up with what I am saying.
Blizzard is not trying to portray real life deities as they “exist” in the real world. They are entirely their own entities that merely draw inspiration. Hakkar is neither Quetzolcoaltal or Kululkan.
Yes they did. I brought them up, you demanded a cite it, I had trouble finding it, he found it for me. Now you are just backtracking because your accusations that I just make things up proved to be baseless like all your other claims.
You are absolutely ridiculous. Heike Owusu immigrated from Ghana to France, a cultural studies professor at the Ecole des Hautes Etudes, has written books such as “African Symbols”, “Symbols of Native America”, Symbols of the Egyptians" etc. all translated into multiple languages. He he cited in several scholarly sources, such as: “Borderline Experience: Visions of War in Three Native American Novels”, “Irish Dystopia in Seamus Heaney’s Selected Poems”, “Language is Power: How Language is Used to Transmit the Values of African Authenticity”, etc.
The guy has credentials, and far more of an expert than you are, who has yet to source anything in relation to this, relying purely on your own subjective experience. It shouldn’t be my problem that you don’t know how to research.
Surely not all… Just like the Westboto Baptist Church isn’t all Christians. It still happens though, like it or not.
That isn’t specifically attributed to Trolls though, that is something the Horde did as a whole.
Being savage is not necessarily the same as being villainized.
Your issue isn’t the coding, your issue isn’t the villainization. Your issue is any race that draws cultural inspiration that is traditionally associated with people of color, can’t, by any circumstances, be baddies. Otherwise it is racist, that is your issue.
That’s because there is no substantial evidence for its existence at all.
In-universe racism we see somewhat all the time. Hell, the entire faction conflict is somewhat built upon in-universe racism from both sides. The only reason the Blood Elves are in the Horde is due to in-universe racism.
If you wanted to be in a position of power and authority, it was.
Not when there was a full cultural 180 that has been in place for a longer period of time, than the Empire ever existed.
Jesus Christ, you are useless.
First of all, the name change did not happen when she became queen, it happened at an undetermined point during her reign. It specifically says the night elves were so enamored by her, they renamed the city in her honor… A city that was originally named after Elune. It’s pretty cut and dry that Azshara was effectively overtaking the worshiping eye of the Night elves at that time.
Again, it was if you wanted to be anyone of significance.
No, just Highborne
Again, not when there was a 180 cultural shift that has been in effect longer than the Kaldorei empire stood.
Yes you are.
Percentages that completely lack context, and effects that are not as long lasting or as long-term regressive as the loss of Dragonflight’s blessings.
No it didn’t.
No, that’s still evident.
They got it back, (Vitality from Alexstraza) and lost it again during War of Thorns.
Stop downplaying what the Horde did in BfA.
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I feel like I deserve credit-hours at an institution for reading this thread.
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I’m not attributing motive. I’m describing your actions. You reduce paragraph long posts into sentence fragments, which robs them of context. You’ve been shown how to quote people and sources in full in a way that keeps space to minimum. You’ve been invited to discuss directly with me Tamani#2391 on Discord so you don’t even have to quote. You continue to refuse to do so.
In addition to this, you continue to deny instances of systemic racism, unconscious bias in general and in WoW in particular. You’re reluctant to provide scholarly sources and the few non-scholarly sources produced by others you have tried to use to back up your arguments either call out the existence of racism in portrayals of Vodou or engage in it themselves. And you call people who disagree with you names. You are not transparent. In fact, you also openly engage in lying.
The more you post, the more the nature of your conduct is revealed.
I keep up fine. You lied and stated that there exists just as many studies criticizing the theory of Unconscious/Implicit Bias as there are supporting it. You claimed to reject the theory on scientific grounds, citing the counter-studies, but now you’re claiming there’s no actual studies supporting it at all.
You’re just continuing to be reluctant to provide scholarly sources.
And that’s why it’s example of coding/tropes. They aren’t recreating the actual deities. They’re just using well worn coding/tropes/stereotypes associated with the religion/deities/cultures involved.
You’re the one trying to claim they were referencing specific deities. Not me.
You have not presented scholarly sources and the few non-scholarly sources you produce either don’t support or outright contradict your claims. I, however, post plenty of links, quotes, and references, which you then edit out of your responses, robbing the conversation of context. Just like you’re going to clip out all my links and references when you reply to this post.
An out and out lie. The shameless is actually pretty amusing; especially considering Google is a thing and all the author’s books have previews on Google. Both the African Symbols and Egyptian Symbols actually say the following about author/illustrator Heike Owusu…
The more you post, the more the nature of your conduct is revealed.
Vodou is not the Westboro Baptist Church. Vodou is not full of the things you dishonestly claim it is. Another fun fact that puts the difference into even starker contrast: Vodou is actually a haven for LGBT+ people in Haiti, having always welcomed them, not just as practitioners, but also as initiated priests.
The Shatterspear only get involved with the Horde when the Horde is playing the role of expansion villain and being portrayed as bad/evil/wrong by attacking Night Elves- where they get played using the same tropes of the kind you’d find in any turn of the century racist natives.
Again, the issue is not the references/ethnic coding. But the repeated tendency to combine references/coding combined with the historically racist tropes and narrative function. And they do so in a way they don’t do it with the other playable races. The kind of treatment is reserved for races like Centaur, Drust, or Gnolls- who the game then invite us to continue genociding/displacing without it being treated with nearly as much gravity or criticism.
If you’re not going to actually identify any specific instances of in-uiverse racism in Warcraft, I’ll give an example to help.
I’m not troubled. Now we have a reason to drive them from Hyjal, don’t we?”
-Thisalee Crow
Interested parties can click here for the Night Elf tangent.
Lord Ravencrest headed a non-Highborn noble house and held a position of power and authority in the Kaldorei Empire. His advisor Latosius and Illidan both commanded the Moonguard, the elite force of arcanists that acted as protectors and peace-keepers for the Kaldorei Empire, which consisted of Highborne and non-Highborne arcanists alike. You’re wrong here too.
The renaming of Zin-Arashi occurs before the Kaldorei Empire gets described as “Networks of luminescent causeways, limned by the silver Light of Elune, radiated out across the far corners of Kalimdor” under her reign.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/480865946685407232/765587849109962782/unknown.png
Elune worship, reverence for nature and the Ancients, arcane magic, Highborne, etc. All that stuff was there in the Kaldorei Empire is still there in modern Kaldorei. There’ve been changes in how they all relate, but it’s never been a 180 and all the elements are still there today. As are Tyrande, Malfurion, and the many other Kaldorei who’ve personally experienced all those changes. It’s all relevant Kaldorei lore.
I’m describing their words and actions. You’re the one saying their actions belie and contradict their true feelings and that they haven’t gotten over it, when nothing they’ve said or done suggests otherwise.
Also, your cutting up replies into snippets have robbed this exchange of context.
The Gnomes lost 80% of their entire population in a matter of days. The context here is that they lost more of their population than Night Elves did. The Night Elves did not lose their immortality due to the destruction of Teldrassil. There is no substance to your claim that Night Elves experienced the most significant genocide since the Scourging of Lordaeron.
Why do you keep blatantly lying about stuff that can be easily searched?
There’s actually more Night Elf infants in game than there are Gnome and Darkspear Troll infants. Also, more Night Elf infants than Blood Elf, Draenei, or Goblin infants in game.
So using your own argument, you have to admit that Night Elves have fewer issues with infertility than all those races. Would you like to change the basis of your argument or double down?
The Night Elves lost their magically granted agelessness and immortality with the loss of Nordrassil, which was lost in WC3. They did not get immortality back from Alextraza between then and BfA. All your made up claims about Night Elves experiencing accelerated aging, excessive sickliness, and infertility, occur pre-BfA and can’t be the result of the Horde burning down Teldrassil.
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Considering how much helpful has been the Alliance with the Gnomes and Nelves, I’d say they’re still miles better without the Alliance.
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