Yeah I had been following it for a while before I commented. A lot of unfortunate implications to be sure.
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I think you’re really underselling the kinship that has formed between Orcs and Tauren. Both races are very spiritual with deep respect for the elements while also putting great value into honor, hunting and martial skill. Both races also prefer modest living, and have strong senses of community.
The Alliance doesn’t really share any of these qualities with the Tauren. The shamans the Alliance has don’t have nearly as much overlap and they value luxurious lifestyles in walled cities over the wilds. And the Alliance doesn’t exactly present themselves well either. The Tauren have suffered more at the Alliance’s hands than any other Horde race in recent years taking the brunt of the Stormwind war machine in both the Alliance-Horde War and the Fourth War.
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At the very least, the Highmountain Tauren should have been available to both factions. My Alliance DK is Exalted with them. I’m practically an honorary member. And yet after all I did for them, they all join the horde?
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Might be canon the Horde did it.
I am having trouble finding the very specific part I mentioned. Either I am flipping right past it, or it’s somewhere in Stormrage, which I don’t actually have. I’ll keep looking for it, but I don’t actually need it to prove my point. Here are some other examples.
“A Sharp twinge suddenly went through him, it was not the first he had felt of late, nor did he think it would be the last. Mortality was beginning to catch up to him. The Archdruid witnessed the aging of comrades of other races, but to experience it was not so simple a thing… Malfurion fought down a a brief feeling petulance, a feeling that he was not supposed to grow old. (Wolfheart, pg 28)
The battle for Mount Hyjal was year 21, and Wolfheart was year 28. So, I am supposed to believe that Malfurion went from peak physical condition, to old-man creaky bones in 7 years? Somehow that isn’t accelerated aging? Especially for a race that is supposed to live thousands of years naturally?
Moreover, for a race that has been immortal for 10,000 years, isn’t any aging at all advanced aging? Aging is relative in this case.
“The High Priestess and Archdruid looked at each other, since the loss of their immortality, the Night Elves have begun experiencing afflictions they have only witnessed in others. There had been a few other deaths, and Shalasyr’s showed there will be more and more as time went on.” (Wolfheart, pg 89)
Now, we can take away two things from this. Shalasyr’s illness was either a result from aging, or a result from the loss of health and vitality originally had from the blessing of Alexstraza. Personally, I think the latter makes more sense, considering her cause of death was described as a sickness. If such is the case, then the Blessing of Teldrassil would curb that (Not fully fix because at the time of Wolfheart, Teldrassil wasn’t fully free of corruption). Until War of Thorns.
They still connect her death to her loss of Immortality, so it’s hard to be sure if her death was due to the loss of Alextraza’s Blessing or a loss of Nozdormus. Perhaps both, regardless, we have to accept one or the other. Which means, she either died due to illness as a result of her loss of vitality, or she died due to rapid aging after 7 years of mortality. In either case, these are afflictions impacting the Night Elf race as a whole, afflictions that Teldrassil was grown for the explicit purpose to cure. So the Burning of Teldrassil does go far beyond the initial loss of life.
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Mother Moon, grant me calm, the high priestess silently pleaded. Although she was millennia old, the night elf physically appeared little older than that day so long ago when the mantle of leadership had been thrust upon her. She still had the lush head of midnight blue hair that flowed over her shoulders, its streaks of silver with her since her youth. Her face was that of a young maiden, and although some fine lines had begun to crease the edges of her silver eyes, even they were more the result of the last six or seven years of true aging, and not a mark of the ten harsh millennia she had lived.
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Oh thanks! I knew I read that somewhere.
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Hence why I said ‘enemies’ and ‘massive land claim’. There was no concerted combat between the Humans, Tauren, and Vrykul against the Night Elves. Both in the fact they had no massive land holdings, but that the Night Elves ignored them.
As time passed, the night elves began eschewing diplomacy and largely ignored Azeroth’s other cultures. Azshara’s dogmatic beliefs regarding racial purity seeped into night elves’ psyche, creating an atmosphere rife with xenophobia. Only the openly hostile troll nations drew the full attention of the elves.
In other words, apples to oranges.
The Trolls had a lot of land the Night Elves took. And the Trolls drew the Night Elves full attention in combat.
Humans, Tauren, and Vrykul did not have much apparent land, and little we know was specifically stolen. Nor did they draw the Night Elves full attention in combat.
On this minor note, we know of at least one Vrykul land holding the Night Elves took.
King Magnar Icebreaker had his sights focused firmly on the city of Stormheim, now occupied by Highborne elves. The vrykul believed that their path to a glorious afterlife with Odyn would be cleared if they once again held their ancestral home.
The vrykul launched a massive attack on Stormheim, surprising the Highborne with their ferocity. For weeks the two sides skirmished. Magnar led the charge. The Scale of the Earth-Warder protected him from the elves’ arcane reprisals, and the vrykul’s assault scored immediate victories, building enough momentum to push the Highborne out of the city entirely.
The elves’ last chance to reclaim the city happened at Nightborne Pass. The Highborne rallied their forces for a final counterattack, clashing with the vrykul in a brutal, confined brawl.
In the end, the vrykul stood victorious. The Highborne were forced to flee for their lives. They never made a claim upon Stormheim again.
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Unlike the trolls, the tauren and “earthen” (this was before they revamped the titan-forged in WotLK, so could easily include races like mechagnomes or vrykul) actually allied with the night elves in the War of the Ancients. This both indicates there was no sort of endemic warfare and/or conquest, and also that the night elves knew how to get ahold of both in a hurry.
The passage continues:
- Only the openly hostile troll nations dew the full attention of the elves. Small, sporadic battles ignited between the two sides. On every occasion, the trolls buckled before the devastating magics wielded by the night elves. Azshara, however, was not interested in conquest.
However, this is a good find. There seems to have been some back and forth of the Aegis between Stormheim and Suramar, given that Suramar ended up with it during the War of the Ancients. Somehow Suramar ended up on good terms with the Vrykul even after Suramar put up its shield.
I’m aware. The point remains the situation of the Troll Empire was not in the same situation as that of the other races in question in several ways.
I just remember it because the idea seemed markedly strange that the Vrykul could hold the territory.
We don’t really know how they got the Aegis. I assumed Odyn stole it, but it isn’t clear.
I think the Vrykul had the Aegis first. We learn in the Warrior’s Legionfall Campaign of Suramar attending Odyn’s Trial of Rage:
Odyn might have given Suramar the Aegis before the War of the Ancients, and then got it back after Suramar left the Pillars of Creation at the Temple of Elune.
It’s not that I can’t use the built-in features. I know what I’ve posted. Rather, you’re relying on the fact that other readers are simply not invested enough in this conversation to look back at what I’ve said- which is why you intentionally leave out so many of my (and others’) links, quotes, maps, etc and reduce paragraphs of evidence into a series of out of context one liners. Then your replies devoid of any quotes/links/references of your own.
I’m not the only one who has noticed you doing this or the only one who’s pointed it out.There’s no conspiracy to smear your moral integrity. Just people pointing out how you engage in discussion that robs peoples’ posts of their context and sources as you deliver shorter contrarian rebuttals that have little, if anything to back them up.
I can use the navigation features. I consider quoting people in full and not cutting out their words to be for the benefit of the greater discussion. I can track my own points. But given the length of our exchange, I understand it’s difficult for others to do so. I’m not afraid of them reading your arguments in full.
So I explained this a couple weeks ago in this very thread…
Blizzard decides what goes in the game. They decide what NPCs say. What they look like and what their history is. How the lore of the world plays out. What musical cues enter when/where in an attempt to strike a certain mood.
Sometimes they combine things in a way that altogether ends up repeating/perpetuating a racist/colonialist/sexist/whatever narrative, even if that was not their end goal. If one takes the stance that Blizzard’s stories can’t result in X because they didn’t set out to do X from the start, then there is really no way to critique/disagree with any narrative Blizzard produces. Because Blizzard’s only stated goal is to create the most epic gaming experiences ever.
And yeah, I’m gonna say Blizzard was being the lazy one here since they decided to make their Vodou the dark one that included cannibalism and human sacrifice and then they decided to inject some Mesoamerican flavor in there, the first and only thing they really went with was feathered serpent + human sacrifice, when there’s a heck of a lot more to Mesoamerican faiths, but those two facts are pretty much the only ones most people know.
How Blizzard decides to ultimately frame Uther and the Kyrian’s decisions and the nature of justice vs vengeance remains to be seen. Either way, it’s not likely to reflect on the Church of the Light or Humans as a whole the way WoW Voodoo is so tied to Trolls.
Also, you specifically pointed out specific entities in Vodou and Mayan beliefs as being the justification for WoW Trolls’ being warmongering, human sacrifice, and other such atrocities. You stated that Blizzard was just being true to reality - while also not actually being representative of it. To which I pointed out that this is a particularly gross mischaracterization of the actual Lwa in particular.
Take for instance, the fact that you’re referencing burning chickens alive as evidence of Baron Kriminel’s “cruel nature”. That’s just repeating the contents of a Horror film website liberally mixing some fact with sensationalized fiction. In fact, if you type “Baron Kriminel appeal to his cruel nature,” into Google, you’ll find sebera other sites, including the Wiki, etc repeating these exact same lines, ver batim. For the wiki article, this horror movie page is its ONLY reference to Baron Kriminel and it too quotes the line, ver batim. The article has a lot of mistakes, and all its images are taken from stock photos/films/cosplay/costume shops.
And just like that, you’re internalizing and perpetuating ideas born of sensationalized fictional portrayals/references like they were facts. Pretty much the only “facts” you have about the subject. And not even questioning the possibility that it came from a fictional source that isn’t actually trying to present a historical accuracy.
We both know Blizzard’s changed characterizations and framing of different races from expansion to expansion. They did a much better job fleshing out and giving some nuance to the Loa and Zandalari in BfA, for instance.
But I’m not pointing a finger in Blizzard’s face and accusing them of being prejudiced.
I’m pointing out to other posters, on the forums, that the tropes/narratives WoW has commonly used in their portrayals of Trolls (and certain other races) in WoW are rooted in shallow racist tropes that perpetuate racist/colonialist narratives and that by continuing to use them, Blizzard’s not just robbing the story of potential, but doing a disservice to their fans.
That’s why I repeatedly call out the way Blizzard handled Zandalari and Bwonsamdi as a marked improvement. Or how the RTS handled Trolls as being better than WoW. Heck, I’ve pointed out instances before where WoW is ahead of the curve compared to a lot of other fantasy works in this regard before. I’m always going on about Bwonsamdi as upping the game not just in fantasy, but media portrayals in general.
Anything more I really have to say on the topic is mostly the result of people coming in after the fact and arguing otherwise: People arguing that these instances don’t perpetuate racist or colonialist narratives/tropes. And if they do, agruing that it isn’t so bad. And if it is that bad, arguing that Blizzard didn’t mean to do it. And if they did mean to do it, arguing that Blizzard is justified because because it’s rooted in truth (even when it’s not).
I challenge these claims -not to change the minds of those who are set in their ways- but for the sake of those who do have willingness to learn.
Because, like you pointed out, fictional portrayals of Vodou, Norse mythology, and elements of other religions/cultures where they aren’t being demonized or simply using old tropes originally meant to dehumanize them is a large part of how people become more inclined to learn more about or accept their real world counterparts. Likewise, an urban legend may get spread around a bunch of blogs, wikis, and other sites with no actual substantiation, but rather, ones that play on the already negative image of said subject and discourage people from ever seeing it as anything more than a bad thing not really worth seriously considering.
So even if Blizzard doesn’t change - even though I think they can, will, and have shown promise as of BfA- at least some people will be more aware of these elements of the narratives we enjoy and repeat. But that’s really not possible without someone having a willingness to critically examine it and call the stuff out when I see it. It also helps to not actively arguing against such critique with unsubstantiated counterpoints that actively encourage people to be less critical of the media they consume.
Except for the parts where they are. For example, many modern Kaldorei lived under the Kaldorei empire. The Church of Elune existed as part of the Kaldorei Empire and Tyrande was a priestess even back then. Cenarius and his followers existed under the Kaldorei Empire. Illidan was a member of the Kaldorei Empire. Among the biggest change between Kaldorei of the past and present has been the fall of the Highborne from power and the long ban on the practice of arcane magic, but even the arcane magic ban has been lifted in modern times and modern Kaldorei (Highborne and Lowborn alike) are now free to practice sorcery once more.
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She doesn’t even mention the Black Dragonflight in her explanation. Now you’re inventing oher motivations and still not bringing up the fact that she feels Harpies aren’t her equals and resents the fact she’s been forced to share the perch by orders of Skylord Omnuron. Or that she’s glad she finally has an excuse to get rid of them. Because she views them as lesser beings.
Not bringing up her feelings on a topic and never bringing the topic up again, even when they’re relevant is pretty much how you communicate Yrelr’s gotten over something. I mean if Yrel can’t bother to bring up how the Orcs genocided her people as she’s giving a speech about all the reasons why the Orcs must convert or die, when is she going to bring it up?
Also, how you can read between the lines here and divine that Yrel’s unstated motivation is really about the past Draenei genocide- when she doesn’t even mention it- yet refuse to acknowledge Shiralee’s openly stated racist motivations against Harpies has anything to do with her professed belief that they weren’t her equals to begin with?
So there’s no actual numbers to back up your claim, even as you tried to call me out as providing baseless numbers- which turned out to be from Blizzard themselves? So we’re back to just using context.
Gnomes, Tauren, and Darkspear Trolls lost their territory and were driven from it too. And they’re already so few in number that every flu season is a genocide to them. Obviously, losing 80% of their population or being driven to the brink of extinction by any additional attacks is an even more significant genocide.
The only way one can really claim that Night Elves suffered the most significant genocide since the Scourge of Lordaeron is by interpreting “significant” not in terms of actual devestation to the people, but in terms of how much narrative weight and focus Blizzard’s placed on it.
Being immortal and then not being immortal isn’t the same thing as special vulnerability aging, disease, or fertility issues. Night Elves just went from being demigods to mortals. That doesn’t put them at any special disadvantage compared to the other races that have suffered just as significant, if not more significant genocides and already suffer from much smaller populations. Those other races are equally vulnerable to aging, disease, and fertility issues.
And you’ve had about a week to provide actual sources more substantive than, “It’s in a book.” And you still haven’t produced any examples of them grappling with infertility, even in the same manner other races do, let alone them being particularly hampered by it.
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Neither the Scarlet Crusade nor Xe’ra are members of the Church of the Light. They’re shown to be antithetical to most Light users who are not broadly painted in the game as intolerant xealots who want to kill/convert everyone. And it definitely isn’t used to paint Humans as a whole in that light.
When it comes to Trolls, the ones that aren’t being literally called savages or framed as evil are the exception, not the rule. And even the exceptions get described as dirty savages at times.
Zul was a Zandalari that got most every single tribe under his banner. When the Church of the Light and Humans have spent a decade+ being portrayed using tropes usually associated with negative stereotypes about Catholics, then we get a story where Scarlet Crusade leads the majority of Humanity in an effort to purify the world of sin, but the only real lines any humans get are generic, “Be purged by the light!” you might have more of a comparison. Oh, and it all can’t because they’re being mind controlled/tricked or compelled to act contrary to their usual nature.
I read the maps. I never said Val’sharah was on previous Troll land. I said Suramar, where Tyrande, Illidan, and Malfuion grew up was on previous Troll land, as your map clearly indicates.
And I made it clear that Val’sharah was where Illidan/Malfurion was born, but they lived in/around Suramar with Tyrande. And even when Malfuion later returned to study under Cenarius, Val’sharah was still part of the Kaldorei empire and not some separate independent place. These characters did not live apart from the Kaldorei Empire. They were a part of the same Empire that expanded into Troll lands and built settlements on them- like Suramar.
So when Blizzard states the Trolls are stated as being resentful for being forced off their land that we see they do not occupy, they’re just making stuff up because the Trolls were never forced off any land at all.
The killing of trolls and the threatened continued killing -because she wasn’t going to stop expanding her dominion, and her armies were defeating the Trolls at every turn- was what Azhara used to eventually get the Zandalari to the negotiating table, where she could displace their populations.
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Not going to lie. Not familiar with the mana storm or it’s events. And Google’s not helping me. Where can I learn more?
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It comes up in some of the older books about the Exile of the Highborne.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Exile_of_the_High_Elves
That said, I think Drahliana is mistaken that all of the original Highborne took part and were exiled. No real numbers are given.
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Given that
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No exceptions are listed and
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There are no Highborne that are living or welcome among the Kal’dorei before the events of Cataclysm freed them from Eldre’ Thelas, a.k.a. Dire Maul, I believe my statement stands.
But the language never is all inclusive. There’s exceptions by the fact it just says things like ‘Dath’remar’s followers’ and ‘many Highborne’.
Unclear. At that point they probably wouldn’t call themselves Highborne anymore.
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The ones in Darnassus still did… especially the Mage trainers. However, culturally they’ve been severely impacted and humbled by their extended experience in Dire Maul. It seems to have removed most of their classic arrogance.