Ogri’la is a community of Blade’s Edge ogres who have transcended their brutish nature — and the domination by the gronn — to achieve enlightenment, aided by the powerful influence of the Apexis Crystals.
So it more like the crystals certainly helped them but they had some inate abilities/knowledge already. I’d also point out this is exactly the lore in Chronicles 2, with the ogres being smart enough to cast arcane magic with easy and ultimately keeping the Apexis Crystals for themselves to build their empire.
Ogri’la Ogres were smart because of exposure to Apexis, not some normal thing. It was a retcon either way.
And? I don’t know what your point is.
I’m saying your comments weren’t true to the in-game depiction, not that the game needs to be true to life.
‘If I give token representation of positive things, I can depict a group however I want.’ Do you see the issue with this line of thinking?
That culture is a lot more personal if you live it day to day than just celebrate your history of something from hundreds of years ago.
I don’t have a necessary prescription in mind. Though I’d say zombies are pretty evolved and removed from their historic connotation.
No it wouldn’t. We’ve already been over this.
I would absolutely not say it is due to their empires being in decline. They were as such for basically the entire time. This was sticking point as why Dark Trolls minded their own business, because they didn’t care for the ‘warlike ways’ of their brethren.
As I said before, doesn’t matter why, that’s still how they’re shown.
Here is the thing, the Apexis crystal can certain help with becoming intelligent. It doesnt however make you peaceful or actually make you want to be smart. They decided that on their own.
And again, WoD ogres are not a retcon so much as it was built from the lore we already had in BC.
And Goblins only became smart due to Khajamite(not to self make a thread later and without it are apperently fairly dumb, well more than they are now anyway.
My point was there was little to any connection between shaman and the orcs.
Noted.
To a certain extent, yes we should be able to “depict groups however we want”. As southpark would term it, “equal opportunity offenders” seems like what Blizzard is going for most of the time.
Funny, I dont see you being outraged at how the obviously christian coded religion in Warcraft(the Church of the Holy light) is depicit with Crusaders, fanatics, racists and if not outright hypocrites and squarely focused on the negative depiction of voodoism(and even then not all of it is negative).
I didnt dodge it, it is just that I actually do have a life outside the forums.
Lorewise, it was stated several times without the Horde the Alliance would fall apart and Warcraft 3 made sure to point out how fragile the Alliance was. Even Vanilla WoW I felt the Alliance was a fairly disorganize entity and only started to reform with Varian leading.
I would say the more current iteration of the Alliance(after the fall of Garrosh) is more likely to remain unite with or without a new Horde threat but the night elves are proving to be the wild card in that prediction.
No, I’m saying that if you look hard enough, you’ll see want you want to see anywhere. I’m sure you can find racism in Hello Kitty if you want to find it.
Why should they have to make a separate statement that isn’t already demonstrated in game? If you can see the injustices portrayed in game, why should they NEED to give players a Moral Lesson like it’s Sunday School?
I think the standards of satirical comedy and a video game can and should be different.
The Church of the Holy Light isn’t depicted that way. Radical off-shoots and heretics are. I’m hardly squarely focused on voodoo, that’s just the topic of discussion.
I’m not pressing you for time, Zerde. But if you missed it you missed it.
I think there’s still a lot of room between ‘the Alliance would fall apart’ and ‘the Kingdoms would be at war with each other’.
You literally have Benedictus and the Darthing going evil. Not to mention Yrel doing something in Draenor.
I didnt miss it. Believe me, if for no other reason that because I knew you would hold it against me. Again I have stuff to do and dont reply to everything.
As for the point at hand, again, they nearly went to war because of Deathwing and before Thuradin united them into a nation were also tribalistic and fighting one another.
I think a healthy degree of creative freedom should be allowable and negative stereotypes can and probably should exist.
I am just saying it is was outright retcon and I am saying it did come out of nowhere, regardless if Blizzard did have their reasons.
I say it is relevant in the sense that just like the ogres, this is not a retcon. It is an expansion of the lore.
Hence why I said ‘heretics’. They betrayed the Church.
Yrel has no connection to the Church of the Holy Light. I don’t agree the Light itself is Christian coded.
Again, feel free to take as much time as you need. Stuff happens.
We have basically no information on the scale of pre-nationalized humans, it didn’t even seem like they had developed much agricultural land at that point. And Deathwing is an aspect dragon. I don’t think it casts much on humans his ability to trick them.
To a careful extent.
I don’t necessarily disagree. I still don’t know what you’re getting at.
‘By your standard, X would be a retcon.’
Yes, it would. I don’t see how that’s problematic. My only qualm was on how we’re defining ‘out of nowhere’ since it sounded like ‘they did it randomly’.
But it isn’t just like the Ogres because Goblins weren’t originally dumb in the lore.
Blizzard’s been doing this in WoW by presenting actively expansionist powers as just wanting peace, but it’s the Trolls who just won’t leave them alone until they have wipe them out and keep expanding. Then it asks us the champion to keep doing the job.And it doesn’t ever have the goodly characters really question it. The Kaldorei Empire, the founding of Quel’thas, and Aranthor in the Chronicles books. The starting quests in Dun Morogh, Stranglethorn Vale, Ghostlands, and Tanaris.
But then it has other expansionist powers that do the same, wiping out native Trolls until… oh wait- you expanded into the territory of the humans/elves and slaughtered them too? Well now we have to make a point about how war, conquest and genocide is a bad thing that hurts innocent good people.
I know you won’t admit to seeing it, but I don’t have to really convince you. There’s plenty of people lurking and reading these exchanges .
You don’t love the High King and paint the concept in a good light, but Blizzard does. The tendency to legitimize undemocratic autocracies by suggesting that you just need the right kind of autocrat in power, focusing excessively on their exploits, and framing everything they do as benevolent -no matter what they actually do- is another staple of genre fiction. Yes it’s a storytelling issue.
Humans were roped in here from the start. By both me and Blizz because they’re the ones who most often get away with committing genocide under the guise of the greater good. In fact, part of the way WoW “white washes” races is by tying them more and more to the settings’ Humans and Elves, either in outlook, or aesthetics, or relationships. And it often otherizes/villainizes other races by portraying them in the opposition.
I would have preferred it if the Horde hadn’t invaded Ashenvale or Darkshore at all.
The War of Thorns was portrayed as a bad thing by Blizzard. Of course lots of players tried to spin it into being as a good thing the Horde did to force peace, but Blizzard clearly didn’t buy into it and make it a thing.
Lots of players try to justify a lot of messed up stuff that happens in WoW, even as Blizzard makes it clear they’re doing it so they can stoke the ire of the playerbase. They know that having bad things happen to Night Elves tends to do that.
Garrosh was starting to be framed as a villain narratively in Cataclysm. He was already being a jerk to Night Elves with his assaults in Northern Kalimdor, and the only reason he’s innocent of the even worse things to the Night Elves he’s accused of is because even worse people actually did them instead. Again, this is Blizzard milking the suffering of Night Elves for sympathy.
He does not have the mental capacity, size, or age of an adult dragon. He is a child dragon.
The event is called children’s day, but the NPCs aren’t called children. They’re called orphans. I mean, you can’t actually use context clues to determine what is/isn’t a child- like being relative size differences or using terms synonymous with children isn’t enough. The game has to specifically refer to the models in question as children for you to actually consider them children. The crux of your argument as to why small trolls called whelps aren’t children is because the game calls them “whelps” and doesn’t explicitly use the word children in referring to them, right?
Or maybe you are willing to us context because now you’re arguing these little Trolls using a word synonymous with children aren’t actually children because they’re dialogue is aggressive in combat. When the truth is that they’re just using the samegenericaggro lines so manyTroll NPCs use.
And making it so Troll children are pretty much like any other hostile adult hostile mob you have to kill without a second thought is messed up.
It happens to them too, yeah, but Blizzard really likes going after Night Elves to show you how bad someone is. You know who also gets used a punching bag, but doesn’t get played for pathos that way? Trolls, especially when it’s us doing the punching.
Yeah, no. Gnomes, Goblins, Dwarves, Tauren, Trolls, Draenei, etc. would love to get the kind of presence Humans, Orcs, Blood Elves and Night Elves regularly get. To be on the cover of games, to have us have to deal with their issues in darn near every single expansion, to have their suffering treated as a moral barometer for every major characters, to be major players in stories and not just the sidekicks, and to have books that center so heavily on them- even ones with lore inaccuracies and big badly written cameos by other races.
We literally play through Illidan’s life as he fought through the War of the Ancients. So much of that expansion is about the War of the Ancients, how all the Night Elf characters that are still alive from that time were changed by it, and how they deal with it now. If you’re going to draw a comparison to the whole Night Elf vs Night Borne situation, the races you’re actually looking for are Blood Elves vs Void/High Elves.
The Troll empire wasn’t declining by itself. The Night Elves were actively moving into the territory and killing them and forcing them to terms. Nothing implies or suggests the Trolls as in decline before the appearance of the Night Elves.
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I wish the most offensive thing in Blizzard book would be getting the lore wrong. Or that it’s sexism amounted to no more than failing to portray Night Elf society as matriarchal when they could have done so much worse.
Come on. I know you have more than one example you provide is an alternate universe Grom exclaiming victory right after we repel a Legion invasion. Blizzard’s been working on making Orcs more than just one note villains since WC2 and all you can come up with is a single line from 4 years ago?
Like I said, I agree that they’ve been hero batted, but you’re kind of not really bothering to support your own case.
Yes, we’ve established that other people are capable of noticing and acknowledging racist elements in a work when they stumble upon them. But the question is can you?
Like if someone did stumble upon something racist in the Hello Kitty franchise, would you be able to see it or acknowledge it, or would you just dismiss it out of hand with the argument that, “The Hello Kitty franchise can’t possibly have anything racist in it!”
Because being unable to see racism or being unwilling to address it doesn’t keep it from happening and doesn’t mean you can’t engage in it.
But Blizzard does give players moral lessons like it’s Sunday School. So where in the narrative does Blizzard portray the instances I pointed out as being bad?
With any luck, some dev will be playing through the Dwarf starting area, notice this, feel it isn’t appropriate, and have them changed to full sized Trolls and remove any concept of them being whelps.
I can see it when it’s really there and I have the capacity to determine when (or if) it’s intentional or an unfortunate coincidence or when some people try to paint it as far worse then it really is.
Well, first you’d actually have to prove that it is indeed racist.
Not really.
In any instance your may or may not (usually not) find it present in the story.
MOST people really can make that judgment for themselves without YOU OR BLIZZARD needing to sermonize how “evil” it is.
My god, before BfA, they never even made characters (or players) feel the least bit guilty for what happens in the story. Because it USE to be that it let the story tell itself, whatever the player took from it, so be it.
Sure, but it’s really just your perception, not the reality. You are speaking so generally, as if these powers, Trolls or otherwise, are monolith hive minds, and it is complete unacceptable to portray them in a way other than how you would prefer they be portrayed monolithically.
Blizzard doesn’t justify anything when it comes to the trolls and their empire. It shows a conflict, more often from the perspective of the player character, who is either attached to the Alliance and Horde. Of course from the perspective of a Dwarf in the Dwarf Starting zone, things are going to be framed in a way that makes the Dwarves look innocent. Of course from the perspective of a Blood Elf, in the Blood Elf starting zone, it’s going to be framed in a way that makes the Blood Elf seem innocent. That is the perspective of the player character.
And even then, it’s the softest damn ball. Zul’jinn’s “Villain” monologue was hardly villainous. It was a man literally listing the atrocities done to him. He was framed as the victim in that scenario in every possible way.
For so many other Troll encounters, there isn’t a framing at all.
So, that is what I am saying. You make these hella long posts making declarative statements, completely unsupported. At the end of it, your argument is this.
“Trolls lose and they shouldn’t.”
and
“The story should be framed in the way I would like it to be.”
Which, okay, fair enough. But don’t put that idea forward as if there is any objectivity to it.
And that has been extremely harmful to the Kaldorei cultural roots as the Savage, Amazon Wood Elves they originally were.
You can cry and moan about how bad Trolls have been treated, but the moment you elevate Night Elves to a position of a Dev-favored race, you lose all credibility. At least the Trolls still have their culture, Night Elves are being made into Tolkein Elves with every bit of Lore Blizzard adds.
Night Elves barely have a culture left.
Again, don’t say Blizzard’s Human bias translates into Night Elf bias. Human/Orc bias has been the most damaging thing to the Night Elf story.
Right, and after years of being the punching bag for the sake of Horde story telling, the majority of Nelf players, at least OG nelf RPers, have completely left the game.
Again, I am not saying the story is good. I am rejecting your assertion that it has been good for Night Elves. It hasn’t.
I am also rejecting your assertion of racial codification and Blizzard showing bias towards European Colonial coded races. It’s not nearly that deep. Blizzard makes call backs to their Orcs vs Humans franchise. So it’s Orc vs Human storytelling that takes president over everyone else, including elves and trolls.
Again, I think it is incredibly offensive to suggest what you are suggesting, for reasons I have already stated.
No, he wasn’t. Stop with the declarative statements, and provide proof. You have failed to do so with any and all claims you have made.
Garrosh didn’t even do what he was accused of. That completely sinks your claim that he was already being portrayed as a villain. How are you going to blame Garrosh for something he didn’t do, and somehow use that as evidence for his villainy? That doesn’t make any sense.
Secondly, there was no Nelf sympathy in Cata, save for maybe Darkshore. Which was just the aftermath of the Cataclsym itself, nothing to do with the Horde.
The Horde got to seizes Nelf territory, deforest large areas of Nelf forest, and terraform entire Nelf regions. Blizzard didn’t frame it one way or another. It was a defeat on Alliance side and a victory on Horde side. That’s it.
And even if it was framed the way you claim, why are you acting like thats a good thing Nelves? You think it’s somehow a good thing to be the prime target of a pity party for the sake of other races’ storylines? You think getting entire zones set on fire is something nelf fans wanted?
Once again, you are making declarative statements completely without evidence.
Like you can’t do the same to determine they are not children.
Like their DIalogue:
“Killing you be easy!”
“I’m gunna make you into Mojo!”
“My weapon be thirsty!”
“You be dead soon!”
And what they drop, such as several weapons, leather and chain armor. And the fact their model is the hulking, muscular, Amani Troll model.
They aren’t children. They are warriors.
That has only ever happened in War of Thorns. Cata, most everything bad that happened to Nelves had nothing to do with the main story. Even on Alliance side, you just stumble upon these territories razed by Horde troops during questing. Acting like it’s being intentionally framed to guilt trip you is completely baseless. War of Thorns was the first time that happened, and the ultimate result was the majority of the Night Elf RP community quitting the game.
Are you insane? Night Elves get nothing. The only thing a Nelf player can typically look forward too is a Cenarian Circle outpost, which now includes Tauren, Trolls, Kul Tirans, Worgen, and Zandalari.
Cata gave us Hyjal, sure. Which can go down in history as the place Thrall got married. And is also one big Cenarian Circle zone, so that’s still not even Nelf specific. And of course, Blizz couldn’t give us a Zone that wasn’t on fire during Cata.
I have already explained to you the problem Nelf players have with Legion. Suramar was nelf lore, now more tied to Blood Elves than it is to Nelves. Just another part of Nelf Lore that Blizzard had to rewrite into Horde lore.
At his point, I would rather Nelves had been forgotten like the Draenei or Tauren. Least they get to keep what’s theirs. Every time Blizzard sets their eyes on the Night Elves, it feels like the eye of Sauron.
There is actually a really good post that, I thought, summed up the feelings of Nelf fans. I encourage you to read it, because your perception of how Nelves are treated by Blizzard is way off.
Oh please, Illidan is the ultimate nelf outlier. He is the antithesis to Nelf culture. Why the hell would nelf fans care about that edgy incel? The dude is basically the personification of would-be school shooter wish fulfillment.
Saying Illidan is nelf-player pandering is like saying Sylvanas in BfA is Forsaken player pandering. Except not even that, because Sylvanas was actually cool at one time.
No, it had it’s armies destroyed by the Tol’vir, and was since unable to fortified it’s vast holdings. The Nelves had nothing to do with the empire’s collapse. They made a bad call by allying themselves with Lei’shen.
They could of… from where I sit, the races who have had their lore mostly ignored has had it off far better than the Night Elves. Especially the Zandalari in BfA. Dazar’alore is basically everything Nelf players wanted for Suramar City. But no… We got a grape flavored Silvermoon.
Well, if all you do is make declarative statements without backing anything up, then why should I but forward the effort?
You’re aware people can say, do, perpetuate racists systems without intent it to be, right? Racism thrives on unconscious biases, lack of examination, and even outright denial.
You state Blizzard narrative doesn’t engage in moralizing to the players, then immediately state that in any instance there may be racism, Blizzard’s narrative goes out of it’s way to point it out as being bad?
Having the narrative point out that what someone did is bad is what moralizing is.
That you can’t seem to recognize when Blizzard’s is/isn’t trying to moralize at players explains why you couldn’t recognize it in the story of BfA, of all places.
Blizzard does frame the seizing of Nelf territory, deforest large areas of Nelf forest, and terraform entire Nelf regions in a negative light by telling us the people who do this are bad and what they’re doing is wrong. Anduin, Jaina, Thrall, Saurfang, and Baine (among others) question the actions in the game’s narrative. Garrosh, Sylvanas, and Gallywix -the architects of the genocide/displacement- are the most thoroughly villainized Horde leaders since WoW started.
You’re claiming a whelping dragon has the mental capacity, size, or age of an adult dragon.
Their model is a Frost Troll model shrunken down to half size because Blizzard doesn’t have separate models for frost Trolls the way it has models for Humans, Orcs, elves, draenei, etc. So they take the normal model, make it small, and refer to us as a “whelp” . This is somethingthey do withother creatures too.
Yes, they’re children being portrayed as warriors that the player is specifically sent to target and kill just like any other adult enemy and treating it like it’s no biggie. That’s what’s so messed up about it.
I brought up the racist depictions of indegenous peoples in WoW, using Trolls as a premiere example. Not bellyaching about Trolls getting the shaft in general.I’m not opposed to Trolls getting relatively less focus or even that they lose battles. Or that they get genocided/displaced Just that, you know, Blizzard not fall back on racist tropes and justifications when they do it.
And how Blizzard doesn’t do this with other races that get genocided/displaced, like Night Elves. where indeed, Blizzard doesn’t fall back on racist tropes and justifications. In comparison to Trolls, Night Elf genocide/displacement, despite being free of those tropes, is also used to tell us who the bad guys are supposed to be. Not that I think it’s good how Blizzard focuses so much on Night Elven being killed to frame good guys/bad guys either.
The post you linked points out how Blizzard uses the death of Night Elves to try and deliver an emotional gut punch and how they’re tired of it. They aren’t tired of it because they think Night Elves are a vehicle for from racist tropes. They aren’t even accusing Blizzard of ignoring or justifying their suffering. They aren’t tired because Night Elves aren’t getting enough attention. They’re tired of bad things happening to Night Elves that shouldn’t be happening because Night Elves are supposed to be super powerful in lore.
Also, you claim that Blizzard’s treatment of Night Elves is so terrible that players are abandoning the race, yet they remain close to the 2nd/3rd most popular race among players.
And Orcs vs Humans storytelling in Warcraft always frames the Humans as being morally/culturally superior to the Orcs. It’s just that the Humans are later joined in the franchise by Elves. WoW’s just exacerbated it by downplaying more and more of the Human/Elf flaws and occasionally having the Orcs and their associates backslide more to their WC1/2 depictions.
We literally go back in time and relieve Illidan’s life before he became a Demon Hunter. The time when he was a member of the Moon Guard and one of the greatest sorcerers of the Night Elf empire. The Demon Hunter class is only available to Night Elf characters.
If Blizzard goes back and makes Sylvanas a good guy again who gets to teach Velen/Turalyon/Naaru a thing or two, and we go back in time and get to replay Sylvanas’ life during the time when she was still a hero to the Forsaken people, and then they came out with a new class based on her that was Forsaken only, and a new race rooted in Forsaken history made playable for the Alliance- I absolutely would call that Forsaken pandering.
I can’t find the quote to which you’re referring. What page of Chronicles is it on? Page 87 references that the Zandalari lost a lot of their current leadership when the Tol’vir defeated the joint Mogu/Zandalari fOrces, but nothing about being “unable to fortify it’s vast holdings”, only that it stopped their expansion until later collapse- which as we know, happened thanks to the Night Elves.
I’ve listed examples . I’ve actually posted links. Images. References to pages in Chronicle. You haven’t posted a single reference. Your only link has been to another forum post, which itself has no references.
Of course you dismiss references and evidence, but again, I don’t have to convince you. I know you’re going to discount them. I do it for the benefit of those lurking, as many of them aren’t aware of this stuff.
As I told Faelia racism thrives on unconscious biases, lack of examination, and even outright denial.
Except Baine had no issues with the attack on Ashenvale lead by Garrosh. He had issue with the Bombing of Theramore, and Garrosh using the Heart of Y’saraaj.
Seriously, enough with your mental gymnastics to try and make the Night Elves something they aren’t.
Pretty much
Or they are just young warriors. And your headcanon isn’t lore.
Your own racist perceptions, not rooted in any objectivity.
Not what it looks like to me. In fact, it looks a lot like bellyaching, and blaming everything on Night Elves. Even though they arguable have it worse in terms of the preservation of their culture identity.
Never happened, and you have yet to provide a single, objective example. All you have is headcanon.
Again, enough with your declarative statements and provide proof.
Jesus Christ. So, not only do you just make declarative statements completely unsupported as if they are objective truths, but you are also going to attribute motive and presume intent.
No, we are not tired of bad things happening to the Night Elves because they are super powerful, we are tired of it because it always happens for the sake of Horde or human story telling. Any tragedy that befalls the Night Elves is never for the sake of Night Elf story telling. It is and always has been “Look how weak and timid the Nelves are. They need strong, masculine men to come save them.”
None of the story or closure is for them, or theirs to experience. The Horde or Humans get to have that, if anyone gets it at all.
Because the vast majority of players don’t care about the story. I am talking about RP servers. Every single OG Night Elf guild is gone on MG. My guild is still around, but we don’t play WoW. We’ve moved to other games.
Every now and then, a new Nelf guild will come by and get some traction, but then get fed up with the story like the rest of us and collapse.
Communities and global chats and Kaldorei world events used to have hundreds of people can bare scraps up 10 now. So don’t act like this story has been good to Nelves. It never has been.
Again, it’s the nostalgia aspect they are pandering too. Orcs came to Azeroth as a demonic army, so they weaponize the intertextuality of their pervious games.
That is why you have evil Horde, and yet Thrall and Saurfang mixed in there. That is why you tend to have the Alliance as the heroes of Azeroth, with the occational Gariothos-esque bad apple. That is a problem, and it has nothing to do racially motivated coding of the individual races of Azeroth. To blizzard, there is no racial identity to be concerned with, there is only faction identity. Unfortunatly, that means Nelves are the lovey, tall maidens, who need the bold and masculine humans to save them from any and every threat this side of the Great sea.
An element of Night Elf history that hasn’t been part of their culture in 10,000 years. Anti-Arcane is one of the most fundamental aspects of Kaldorei culture, and Blizzard has been, like I said, slowly and methodically erasing Kaldorei culture, and making them more homogenous with the rest of the Alliance. 10,000 years of hunting down magic users and killing them on sight? Nah, we must be other that. After all, the humans use magic, and they are perfect and have never done anything wrong. Except, you know, a human mage summoning the orcs through the Dark Portal. And, you know, a human Necromancer spreading the plagues grain throughout Lordaeron, leading to the Scourge which is resmonsible for Archimond’s 2nd coming and his invading of the World Tree… But the humans helped us save it, so at least there is that! Better forsake 10,000 years of our history and way of life and completely 180 on our entire ideology, in which our society is based upon!
Again, if you want to say Illidan is Night Elf pandering. Then I guess the columbine was super rad for Marilyn Manson fans too.
Blizzard didn’t go back and make Illidan a good guy. He was a horrible guy. The Illidan novel made it very clear that Illidan was not just misunderstood, and begrudging did bad things for the greater good. He was a sadist and a psychopath who enjoyed hurting people, and took great pleasure slaughtering the Watchers and Ashtongue, and harvesting their souls with demonic magic.
That is not Nelf pandering.
Yeah, thats the same thing.
We don’t know that at all.
None of which actually supported what you were saying. You take a kernel of something, then you from it with completely baseless headcanon.
If you want to say there is human bias, I can mostly agree. What I outright oppose you on is that there is Nelf bias.
Right, and you have very clearly displayed all three of those.
I’m well aware. This isn’t the first time. I’m just keeping it to one post a day and like I’ve said, my goal isn’t to convince them. I know they’re going to deny everything, and we can see they’ve started their signature trick of snipping quotes out of context again.
Baine, Cairne, Thrall, Jaina, and many others had problems with Ashenvale, and when Cairne heard that Garrosh had done some even more terrible stuff to Night Elves (which turned out to be people even more evil) he challenged him for Warchief. When a character messes with Night Elves, Blizzard let’s us know that this is a bad thing.
Whelps in WoW are children. Arguing “But they’re very capable at this one thing for their age!” doesn’t make children into adults.
All RP communities have taken a nosedive since BfA started. But Night Elves remain among the most popular race on RP servers too.
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Everything that is of any real relevance to Night Elves either happened 10k years ago, or in the past 20-ish years. Yes, the Kaldorei Empire, the Moon Guard, the Burning Legion invasion, Suramar, Azshara, matters of Highborne and arcane magic are all relevant parts of Kaldorei lore. They’re literally all part of Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan’s backstory and lore as they were literally alive and active participants and the major events of their lives were in response to all these events. These are ageless beings we’re talking about.
Also, the Legion expansion did totally go and make Illidan into a good guy. So good that they had him team up Khadgar and Turalyon and other good guys. He teaches Velen the Prophet a thing or two about fate. Defied and killed a Naaru, but it’s okay because the Naaru was actually bad/wrong the whole time. They even introduced a whole class based on him, and Night Elf are only one of two races that can be it. Oh, and the NPCs are always going on and on about how much they personally sacrifice to save the world.
Empires don’t go into decline because they stop expanding territory. They go into decline when they start losing control of their territory, which isn’t described as happening until Night Elves showed up, as we can see from their fighting on page 95 and the map on page 96 of Warcraft Chronicle Vol 1.
Does there exist such a thing as racist perceptions rooted in objectivity? Are those the kinds of racist perceptions I should be having?
I’ve listed examples . I’ve actually posted links. Images. References to pages in Chronicle. You haven’t posted a single reference. Your only link has been to another forum post, which itself has no references. I know you’re terrible about denying references, but other people aren’t. I don’t provide them for you. I provide them for others.
I’m starting to think you didn’t even read the one singular link you posted, as indeed, the OP’s complaint was that bad things shouldn’t happen to Night Elves because they’re so powerful.
But yes, WoW definitely should add more prominent female characters outside of just Tyrande and Jaina and Sylvanas so that when characters come to save the day, it’s not all guys! And it’s representation of men should expand beyond big super masculine male coded warriors/paladins/knights! I agree wholeheartedly on that part!
I wish the OP had made that argument instead of complaining about stuff like how Night Elves shouldn’t be able to be ambushed at night because they’re supposed to be the best night fighters around.
Also, Blizzard could stand not to use Night Elf pain and suffering as some sort of moral lesson for the rest of us. It would disincentivize Blizzard from going after them so often. Maybe they can start using any of the other races and milking them for sympathy. Or maybe just cut back on having us genocide/displace entire races in general?