That’s the issue though. These are all taken from perspectives of people who are measuring their intelligence on assumptions of what intelligence should be.
“ Never assume an ogre’s stupid, that’s when they’ll get you. ”
-Ashlan Stonesmirk
But some of the evidence isn’t, like the Ogres themselves and manuals. They’re generally consistent with that perspective.
“He’s big enough to boss even these brutes around, and cunning to boot.”
As I noted, Ogres get bumped up to cunning but not exactly smart.
They were obviously smart enough to have a empire that lasted a long time in Draenors past.
“Smart” being subjective. Point being, they aren’t really dumb and far from stupid.
And their “dullness” was mostly comedic effect, coupled with their penchant to act without thinking. But they were completely capable of thinking.
It’s just that most of them that survived the collapse of their Empire were the “hillbillies” of their race.
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Then not smart by the terms of the writers in the setting they created. The evidence of this is clearly stated.
Hence why I said ‘it was a giant retcon’.
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Only thing that that proves is that whoever wrote the manual need to be fired, because they clearly didn’t run that by the Lore department.
A LOT of Anti-ogre sentiment in those, falling to the same prejudices as most people in Azeroth.
It proves that was the lore.
First off, I never state that Trolls are wholly innocent. It’s that WoW routinely tries to justify their genocide/displacement. Zul’jin gave was a villain monologue. Every WoW villains gets a monologue where they state their case. Blizzard understands the situation and but still decides to not have anyone treat him as anything more than just another villain. He’s wasted potential more than anything.
It’s WoW’s contradictory statement that “genocide/colonization is bad, now go engage in genocide/colonization, but don’t feel bad about it because these people deserve it,” that’s exactly at the heart of my complaints.
I understand the “empires rise/empires fall is a completely neutral” sentiment. But Blizzard doesn’t treat it as a neutral thing. Blizzard, like much of fantasy, ties morality lessons to the rise and fall of empires. To leadership. To war. And it applies inconsistently. Where one empire built on genocide/displacement is great and glorious and has no interest in conquest, but another empire build on genocide/displacement is forever stained by that original sin. Where a monarchy is as an institution is inherently unjust when some people do it, but good, and even superior when another one does. WoW has plenty of times when the rising population of X and Y doesn’t lead to conflict and when it does, it doesn’t write the only viable solution as being genocide/colonization.
Blizzard decides how it wants to create these situations, frame them, and portray them. And you’re only fine with it because it generally has Humans/Elves as generally being on the right side (unless they hurt other Humans/Elves) and Trolls being on the wrong side (especially when they hurt Humans/Elves).
You’re fine with it because that’s the way it is. I’m calling it out as messed up, especially when coupled with the coding of Trolls as a mishmash of peoples that receive the same kind of narrative treatment in real life.
And you’re offended that I dare question this.
And that thing Cairne accused Garrosh of doing? Killing Druids in Ashenvale. Garrosh is mad at Sylvanas- not for creating mindless Scourge undead- but for using the Valkyr to create more free-willed Forsaken. Vol’jin may regret threatening him openly, but not his sentiments.
Garrosh’s villain batting started in Cataclysm.
And I don’t play Horde with a want to get to conquer without reciprocation. I don’t think the Horde should be conquering at all. And if they (or anyone) is going to run around conquering, and Blizzard is going to make a moral statement about it, it should be called out for what it is and treated more evenhandedly and with greater tact.
Yes. Wrathion is a juvenile dragon.He is not anything approaching an adult dragon.
I “don’t actually know” in the same way I can’t tell you if the orphans in Stormwind/Orgrimmar are actually children, because the game does not literally call them children. I mean I could be really disingenuous and act like they aren’t. Yes, they’re all children.
Yeah, Blizzard -when they have an entire world full of neutral/friendly races they could kill for sympathy and make people look bad- playing the death of Night Elves up for sympathy.
Everything in WoW is ultimately for Orc/Human (and eventually Elf) storytelling. The biggest difference between the Night Elves and Trolls as punching bags is that Night Elves get a whole lot more character focus and are more active/prominent protagonists, receive the benefit of the doubt in any given conflict, and their punching bag status is used to make the bad guys look bad and give the good guys something to fight for. Whereas Troll punching bag status comes with far fewer recurring protagonists, the Trolls getting villainized, and letting us engage in genocide/colonialism without feeling bad about it. Coupled with some racist utilization.
But now that we’re acknowledging that WoW is a work of fiction in which Blizzard decides what they do/don’t have to include and how they portray it, we can make some progress!
Thalyssra,Elisande, Occuleth, Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan, et al were literally all alive and fellow members of the Kaldorei empire with one another during the reign of queen Azshara. They aren’t countless generations removed from one another.
The maps in Chronicle show the expansion of the Kaldorei Empire. The books portray the Kaldorei as just peacefully minding their business and expanding until Trolls attacked them, in which case they had no choice but to kill them all and eventually expand their territory into what the map shows were former Troll lands. I know you’ve read my posts before..
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/3/3b/Kalimdor_Chronicle.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180325104338
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/a/a3/Night_Elf_Empire.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160428235211
It’s not treated as exactly the same. If it were, Blizzard wouldn’t ever be making the moral argument that it’s wrong.
Indeed. Terrible story telling. I’m glad they went on to write two books after that with centered on the rest of the Night Elves’ struggle.
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And how have they have been hero batted? What has Blizzard done to reframe the Orcs as more heroic and good? I actually agree with you that Orcs did get significantly better portrayals following WC1. I just want to see what YOU consider to be Blizzard framing a race a more heroic light.
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Ah, so you claim to be incapable of noticing racial/ethnic coding, references or tropes in media. Or can you notice them and just don’t choose to acknowledge them or think they’re really an issue?
So at what point when Blizzard has employees said racist tropes does it also come in and point out how wrong they are? When does it point out the wrongness of the Kaldorei genociding/colonizing the Zandalari, or the High Elves and Humans genociding/colonizing the Amani, or the Goblins/Wastelanders/Horde/Alliance heroes genociding and tomb robbing the Farraki? Or the Horde in Stranglethorn Vale or in Arathi Highlands in BfA? Or when the Dwarf/Gnome starter quests have you wiping out Trolls that aren’t even reach adulthood? At what point, when making an unprecedented effort to tell us how bad Vol’jin smells and how bad his Common is, does it point out that this is actually an unfair and inaccurate depiction of him and that the Alliance champion shouldn’t have these impressions?
At what point does Blizzard’s narrative question the morality of all this as opposed to just going, “Hey. It is, what it is.”
And that’s just Trolls. But it’s a treatment that a lot of other “tribal” society in WoW gets.
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Where is this from?
It’s featured in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects. He gets a vision of alternate Azeroth where Blackmoore succeeds in his coupe and usurps the throne of Lodaeron, causing Arthas to flee south.
Something along those lines.
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I think that’s the Arthas that married Jaina and stayed a Paladin. Babies ever after too.
Never read the book so I can’t give any specifics. I just saw the summary about alternate timeline “Super Blackmoore” and thought that it sounded really stupid.
How?! In what conceivable way?
That is a rhetorical question. The answer is they don’t. They just don’t comment on it because Blizzard doesn’t want to get into the nuance and complexity of politics. Their entire writing format is designed from a place of convenience. Which I get, is annoying and a disservice to the world, but it’s a far cry from justifying genocide…
Again, it’s your perception. And if you were playing a troll and that troll happened to have that perspective on it, that is totally reasonable. But it’s not necessarily the truth.
Okay. In what way is the Empire of Zul painted as evil and deserving of collapse?
And no, saying the failure to paint Azshara and the Kaldorei as conquers is not a suitable answer. Because the way it is written, that conflict didn’t have a good or bad side. It was just a product of circumstance and how things went, and it is far back enough that nobody remembers the context of how it happened. Only that Azshara won and the Trolls lost.
Give me an example. Because that hasn’t happened.
This is fair, and it mostly applies to humans. I don’t like the High King Either, and that is why my Nelf sees the Alliance as Stormwind’s Imperial tool for vassalizing nonhumans.
But I know objectively that Varian was chosen by Goldrinn or some BS like that, and Anduin is so good and pure and completely infallible, and incapable of having an immoral thought. Which is stupid, but its what it is.
Again though, that’s a story telling issue completely on it’s own. Completely irrelevant of the real life cultural influences for the trolls. if anything, that is something that uniquely affects Nelves, and their savage, naturalistic culture. When Blizz tries to push a square shape into a round hole, as a nelf fan, I am forced to sacrifice aspects of that racial identity.
So, that’s another reason why I have a serious problem with you making it our like Nelves have it off so good. At least Trolls are in a faction that is somewhat compatible.
Humans… Don’t rope the nelves in with that. I have explained already, Blizzard has been white washing Nelves since Vanilla WoW to be more like humans, and it is the aspect of the Storyline I hate the most. If anything, Blizzard is bias toward Human and Orc conflict, and everyone else just falls where they may.
Yeah, invading people’s lands is bad. But guess what? I have said several times already, the War of Thorns was not framed as a bad thing until the Burning of Teldrassil. Even now, you will see countless Horde players justifying the war but condemning the burning.
No, both were stupid and evil. The Night Elves are justified in wanting vengeance for that. Tyrande is on the right side. Now if you want to see Stormwind stroke their evil mustache a bit, I am all for that. But if you just want the Horde to conquest and murder nelves without the moral burdens that comes with, sorry, you don’t get that.
Why? Nothing what you just said suggests that at all.
Yeah, Cairne is mad at Garrosh for killing Druids in Ashenvale, because the Tauren have a close relationship with the Nelves, who taught them Druidism… Garrosh did not do it though. So if you think that is evidence of when the Villain batting started, that doesn’t make any sense.
That is exactly what you are complaining about.
Eh, he has the mental capacity of an adult. He might not be his full size, but that doesn’t mean he is a child.
They use child models and they follow you around for Children’s Week. What they DONT do is attack you saying “Killing you be easy”, while swinging a tomahawk at you.
Troll Whelps are not children. They are warriors.
As I said before, Night Elves are often the punching bag and catalyst for story telling they are ultimately not involved with.
And if it were Dwarves, Humans, Gnomes, you would be making the exact same claim. Completely ignoring the context that it was supposed to be the Twilight hammer sowing the seeds of discord, ramping up hostilities between the Alliance and Horde, AND destabilizing Horde leadership.
Garrosh wasn’t framed as a bad guy narratively, he was framed as the bad guy within the narrative. WE the players were watching events unfold Knowing that no one was in the right here, and no one was at fault.
Seriously, F off. This is the biggest crock of crap I have ever heard. putting nelves in the same category as orcs and humans is honestly insulting. When their entire history was rewritten to have an orc hero, when they only serve as damsels for human and orc men to save. When their suffering is only ever a catalyst for the story telling of OTHER races. GTFO.
One of them is so hopped up on Fel, there is hardly anything else to distinguish him as a Kaldorei. In no way does he represent anything about Kaldorei culture.
And Thalyssra, Elissande and Occuleth are all nightborne now, a Horde race who seemingly have more in common with Blood Elves than Night Elves.
So again, by that logic, Blood Elf lore is Night Elf lore too. And even further, All Elf lore is Troll lore.
Mhm, and again, we are missing context. The Troll empire is declining, and the Night Elves are flourishing. It makes sense there would be a population boom, and nelf civilians would migrate beyond the borders. Which probably ignited a conflict. This isn’t framing the Trolls as evil, it’s just a neutral order of events.
Look, if all you are going to do is say “Yuh huh”, then this is going nowhere. Provide proof.
Yeah, written by a sexist who completely overlooked Nelf Matriarchy, completely misrepresented the culture and the relationship between characters.
The WotA trilogy is hated among a large percentage of nelf players.
So stop acting like nelves have it off so good. We hate nearly everything Blizzard gives us, and most of the time, its just to plot hook nonelves.
“Dreanor is Freeeeeeeeee!”
n onono no no no
not the two worse, THE ONLY TWO, and arthas is by far the biggest stretch ever
arthas betrayal wasn’t alliance fault, garithos on the other hand is, he is NEVER brought up, he is a forgotten character on the alliance side the banished the elfs, was going to have them executed and was then a racist prick to dwarves and forsaken while accepting the help of undead and demons (you know, because those are such a nicer piece of work than accepting naga help)
and that is another point, everytime alliance does something bad it is shrugged and shoved under the rug, while the horde bad actions have been center point of 4 whole expansions now (cata, mist, wod and bfa)
A central point maybe, but just as easily shoveled under a rug. It was demon bloo! No it was Garrosh! No it was just Sylvanas who was evil ad nauseam.
Do we really want to count how Deathwing, Ner’zhul, Kargath, Varimathras, Putress etc all get to cause havoc and none of it being blamed directly on the Horde and their poor decision making skills?
Retcon is not the right word, if anything it was more of an expansion of lore that we didnt have much on. In the same vein we didnt know about the huge Troll empires until long after Vanilla(I dont even recall much lore about it in Warcraft 3!)
Do you really want to talk about retcon using Warcraft 2? Hell, by your standards the entire orc race becoming more shamanistic was a giant retcon that came out of nowhere!
You conflate the fact the trolls are treated negatively with some perceived racist undertone. The issue here is Blizzard has plenty of other depictions of positive racial minorities in the other races and plenty of negative depictions of more western coded civilizations.
The more likely answer is the trolls are treated negatively because of the story needs of WoW(namely fodder for raids that derive from trolls being generally considered bad guys in popular culture). As oppose to any sort of suppose bias.
Clearly Scandinavian people still celebrate their own ties to vikings and don’t take offense from the fact vikings are not exactly always drawn in a positive light(as far as I can tell).
Sounds like the opposite question is a better one. Do you really think the Horde, and in particular the trolls are just a bunch of savages who really only think about killing, canabalism and/or blood sacrifices?
And I have always told you my belief of the humans(and the Alliance in general) I dont think they are angels. They just happen to be better than the Horde.
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i don’t know why you included deathwing, but anyway
first, my point is that alliance doing bad is not frequent, to such a point that for anduin to go “BUH BUTH SIADES” and mention alliance characters that did do bad, he has to mention arthas, which is a MASSIVE stretch
and people do bring up putress quite frequently actually, inclusively saying that sylvanas was behind the wrath gate
also, thrall gets blamed for garrosh, like, a lot, he does it himself too
Ogres were originally dumb and had no roman aesthetic. Their intelligence change was absolutely a retcon at the very least. Not super important either way.
Yes, the Orc race going from ‘we worship Satan’ to tricked shamanistic people was a retcon. I’m not sure I’d say it ‘came out of nowhere’. They had their reasons.
I didn’t actually comment about whether it was racist or not. Just that it relies on some number of depictions wasn’t accurate based on what said depictions actually were.
This point is off anyway. ‘If I say nice and mean things about some groups, I can depict other groups however I want.’ Do you see the issue with this line of thinking?
Celebrating your past is not the same as living that culture in the day to day. In the same way a Civil War actor partakes in modern day life when not acting.
I’ve already said the Darkspear are presented as an exception to the rule. I think most Trolls are depicted as savages that are primarily motivated by battles, domination, questionable magic, so on.
That’s not much of an answer. There’s a lot of middle ground between ‘not angels’ and evil, dubious people wanting to inflict harm. You think without the Horde the Alliance would just fall apart? Because that’s what you seem to be claiming.
Even if it was a retcon it was something that happened long before WoD. Namely in Ogri’la we saw the potential intelligence of the ogres.
The closest the orcs ever had to any ties to shamanism was Ne’zhul, and even then he was a dark shaman. Not to mention Warhammer probably has orc shaman but I’m not too well verse in their lore.
It is fiction, it is not suppose to be accurate. At best, a funhouse mirror that give you shapes that vaguely resemble the real thing.
Except they dont all “other group however the want” or more precisely said other group had their own moments of positive depiction.
I dont see much difference. Only a very small south american minority would even have direct ties to the aztecs and inca of old. If anything the savage trolls seem to take inspiration more from those civilization with only a splatter of the loa worship we see today. I’d also point out if your goal is to stamp out incorrect depictions of said culture, you might as well ask to get rid of zombie movies, considering its ties to voodoo.
Except that would ignore all the other lore we have in game. Yes, the trolls have been motivated by battles, domination, questionable magic etc but I would also say part of that because their empires were all in decline. We have been told in no uncetain terms the trolls act that way because they still think Azeroth is still in its pre-sundering state. That they can still create the sort of empires of the past.
If anything the reason the darkspear(and maybe even soon the Zandalari) are depicted in a more positively light is because empire building is no longer their main goal.
It’s been a long time so I could be misremembering, but I thought the only reason why the Ogrila ogres were smart was because of the crystals in the region, and not because they started out that way. I just remember the WoD ogres feeling out of place to me because it seemed like a sudden “look they never USED to be huge idiots!”
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