That’s what I said. The Darkspear and the Zandalari are painted as the exceptions of Trolls in the way these negative elements are depicted as the exceptions for humans. Because the Amani, Gurubashi, Drakkari, and Farraki are primarily and mainly depicted negatively.
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It was amusing when this came out. It was a clear narrative statement using a common phrase to mean exactly what it was meant to mean. But the a lot of Alliance posters were all “maybe they got lost or somethings”.
Then Andiun specifically mentioned that they didn’t come back because of the Alliance in his letter and takes the blame.
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Couldn’t be farther from the truth.
Also not true. Alliance have been the merica faction since they had beef with trolls, absolute conquerors and racist but ok.
Please play WC3 and educate yourself before posting
what are you talking about, Hamuul Runetotem is the one that helped forsaken join the horde lmao. WRONG AGAIN.
At no point they have done this, ever.
most
Yea like in camp Taurajo?
You’re cleary butthurt about playing the wrong faction. Enjoy your humans and crappier elves.
also
because no. Taurens are the heart of the horde. They are the embodiment of unity and more than family. The only thing relatable for taurens in alliance are the night elves. Also because it’s disgusting to think of such a thing.
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Nope. Never did.
Not gonna let you put words in my mouth.
Sounds cute. Says nothing.
[Citation needed]
But, in the end, you make a lot of comments about why the Alliance didn’t send envoys. They didn’t need to. They just needed to no murder the ones the Forsaken had sent.
Them are your own words, boyo
Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. We literally see it happen. Sylvanas betrays Garithos and the Forsaken eat him…
Again, a reasonable response when your only interaction with them has been betrayal…
Runetotem*
Oh? You just made an unsupported (self-serving) assertion about what I said. If you want claim it “kinda” says something else than what it does say, you probably should give a reason why. But I have to say, this all reads as someone who wants to make claims about the other person’s position because they find it too difficult to address what they did say.
But it is always so weak when someone tries to claim someone else is making a point they aren’t making. So let me say this. I don’t think that innocent civilians deserve to be punished for what the Scarlets did. I do think Alliance claims of moral superiority are hypocritical.
So you argument about the Alliance killing Sylvanas’ envoys is to cite something that occurred after the fact?
Yes, Sylvanas killed a genocidal murderer who had already turned on his allies once. He would have betrayed her if she didn’t betray him. (and it is interesting to note that there is no shortage of claims that Garithos “wasn’t Alliance” when it is convenient.
Even if the Alliance knew about that, and didn’t want an alliance, they could have offered that if Sylvanas didn’t kill humans they would kill Forsaken. But we know that they had no intention of that. I mean, it is fairly laughable to think the if she hadn’t killed Garithos the response would have been the same.
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You said it, man…
If it’s not what you mean, then maybe you should have worded it better. But not, you are so gun-ho with paining the Alliance a big bullies to the undead, you are more than willing to write off the sins of the Forsaken to do so.
As long as you keep lying, I am going to call you out on it.
This didn’t occur after the fact. Sylvanas killing Garithos (The defacto leader of the Alliance at that time) was literally the Alliance’s first contact with non-scourge undead…
Maybe, we will never know now.
I have never made that claim. Some do though, you are right.
Would you negotiate with someone who betrayed you and ate your general?
Again, you can say all you want “The result would have been no different” but that’s just headcanon.
Maybe it would have been, maybe not. We will never know because the first thing the Forsaken ever did in relation to diplomacy with the Alliance was betrayal.
I just reread the letter Anduin sent. There is no mention about the ambassadors not coming back due to Alliance. The only thing mentioned about it was the Alliance refused.
Also, I would point out the Alliance wasnt the only ones who refused the Forsaken’s alliance. Silvermoon also declined.
The reason why these races were depicted negatively was because their nations were all in a state of decline and in said decline all of them turned to desperate measures to survive.
The humans at least at the time were all relatively stable and was less inclined in that particular point in time to go to war. But make no mistake. Blizzard made sure to point out if not for the Horde the human nations(and possibly the rest of the Alliance races) would all be in a state of war and killing each other.
Also, the Drakkari were at least treated in a more sympathetic light. If not for the Scourge attacking them, they might not have sacrificed their Gods. Hell, one of the quest even made sure to point out how brutal we the players could be by having us murder a general, his wife and daughter(I recall the daughter NPC was only using a skillet to fight us, I think)
It’s part of the backstory. The envoys were nameless Forsaken that were cut down by the Alliance they made contact with. The Alliance also made it clear that it considered the ruins of Capital City their property and were going to cleanse it of the “Scourge” that dwelled within.
No… they thought that they could approach those who once had them as family and neighbors and still be considered as such. The Forsaken after all, had once held and died for the Alliance banner.
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The text was quite clear that Sylvanas does not know if the Alliance did or did not kill them!
Maybe their first action in unlife shouldnt have been to betray the last major Alliance leader in Lordearon.(regardless of how much he deserved it)
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He had betrayed them first in his duties towards the citizens of Lordaeron. He was no longer owed any loyalty at that point.
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Well I think they are depicted negatively regardless. They still are described typically as cannibalistic, savage, aggressive, brutal, superstitious, so on. With negative connotations towards these.
Even if it was because of ‘a state of decline’, that’s still the depiction. In the same way Deathwing was depicted as mad, whether or not said madness had a cause.
Yes and no. They’ve vaguely said the Alliance would be weakened without the Horde in like two quests. But rarely they’d be in all out war, especially when there’s been essentially no given war between the nations in Warcraft history?
Again, whatever the reason, that’s the depiction. And here is a pretty evident description in Relics of the Snow Leopard Goddess.
Aw, prime specimens!
You can see there the divergence from the root symbology. Quite extraordinary.
What a pity that the ice trolls are determined to bring about their own demise.
Did you know, for instance, that the Drakkari were exiled from the rest of the troll nations for their extremely violent ways?
> It’s true! How did you think trolls ended up in such a harsh climate as this?
Trolls too violent for Trolls from the start.
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Or you know they are depicted that way because trolls as part of popular culture were depicted as savages and Blizzard decided to add their own spin. Namely by giving them Jamaican accents in Warcraft 2. Which ultimately lead Blizzard to grafting mezzo american cultures(and lets face it, some of those mezzo american culture were into human sacrifices and brutal wars) to the trolls.
And before you say anything else, the Ogres ended up getting traits from the Romans, a decidedly western civilization and still portrayed in a fairly negative and violent light.
As oppose to say the Vrykul? A species that are basically giant humans with clear Nordic influence. If Blizzard was only lampooning non-western Civilization you might have a case for arguing that Trolls are suppose to be a racist depiction. As it is right however Blizzard seems to have taken inspiration from every major Civilization on Earth and turn said inspiration as a template for villains, heroes and everything else in between.
We saw an alternate Azeroth where Blackmoore ended up king of Lordearon. We have see how easily Deathwing could manipulate the various Alliance nations to go to war and had his little Demon Soul plan not fail would have see Lordearon, Gilneas and Kul tiras fighting over the scraps of Alterac.
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Not exactly. It’s something we’re told in game but not really more then a rumor.
And nothing says they were “cut down” but Alliance other then Sylvanas’ sayso, and if they were, it was probably done by the Scarlets, which were acting against the Alliance’s wishes and against them.
So, stupid. Got it.
None of this changes the fact that Trolls are primarily depicted negatively, whatever the reason. We’re talking about Trolls, whataboutism need not apply.
Since this was your comment. Roman civilization as was added by Ogres hasn’t been in existence for what, hundreds of years? I mean, not to mention it was a giant retcon anyway because ‘Ogres are just super dumb’ didn’t have any actual content behind it when they decided to do Warlords.
As with ancient Rome, we do not have Nordic cultures that go out raiding in longboats these days (as far as I know). There are still a lot of indigenous cultures that take part in various aspects that people relate to what Trolls are drawn from.
There are like an uncounted number of alternate realities in the lore. I don’t think any of it relates to Deathwing having an ‘easy time’. And we’ve seen there are really many safeguards for magic dragons corrupting kingdoms (Stormwind). Doesn’t really come into depicting the human nations as ‘in a state of war and killing each other’ in any natural or easily induced sense.
Do you really think the human nations are filled with evil, dubious individuals bent of harming others when given the chance? I’m surprised.
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Nope. Bullsh*t. In no fair reading to the words say what you claim and you have offered no reason to believe otherwise.
This is now nothing more than an-hominem attack. Not that I expected more, but you are now using logical fallacies in mean spirited attacks.
I’ll quit here. It not enduring such tactics and its not like you have much credibility at this point.
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This is a Fallacy. Ogres weren’t really “dumb” so much as they just thought and spoke differently and have difficulties in speaking any Language not their own.
Really? I have to say that I’m just stunned that you think that will convince anyone. I mean he talks about how she “approached” them and they rejected her. I mean all you have is that he didn’t use the actual work “envoy”. I mean, for you to conclude it wasn’t the envoys described in chronicle, you would have conclude that Sylvanas approached the Alliance a second time, which doesn’t seem to do much for your point.
And one finds it hard to see that the Blood Elves treating the Forsaken as monsters from very beginning doesn’t do much to say that Alliance didn’t. At least the BEs eventually stopped trying to kill them.
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Pretty sure they were. Here’s a quote from the old RPG.
“Some ogres have two heads. Unfortunately, two ogre heads are not better than one — the heads rarely get along with each other, and two-headed ogres are just as dumb as their one-headed brethren.”
Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness Manual.
Ogre
The Ogres are the monstrous two-headed allies of the Orcs that were brought through the Portal by the Warlock Gul’dan after the First War to act as enforcers in an effort to quell needless infighting between the Orc clans. Due to the constant bickering between their two heads, Ogres exhibit less intelligence than even the lowly Peons. Their incredible strength and unnatural toughness, however, make them some of the fiercest warriors in the Horde.
Ogre-Mage
The Ogre-Magi were originally a small band of extremely loyal Ogre enforcers, transformed by Gul’dan into scheming and malicious sorcerers. By warping and twisting the Elf-magiks of the Runestone at Caer Darrow, Gul’dan was able to infuse the magical abilities of long dead Warlocks into the bodies of these unsuspecting hosts. Once hulking simpletons, the transformed Ogre-Magi can direct their death magiks as easily as their lesser cousins would deliver a crushing blow to any foolish enough to stand in their path. The Ogre-Magi have also become extremely cunning and insidious - serving the Horde only as they see fit.
The ones who could speak well were like Mog’dorg the Wizened and Chu’a’lor, from Apexis.
Welcome to Ogri’la, .
The ogres here have managed to gain a great mental acuity through the magical emanations of the surrounding crystals. Though we do not fully understand how they work, we have come to appreciate our new home and only want to live in peace.
Unfortunate then that the demons and ethereals, and especially the Black Dragonflight, will not leave us to that peace.
There are a number of other quests in Classic where characters reference their dumbness. I will say the Warcraft 3 manual slightly upgrades them to ‘more cunningly intelligent than they appear’.
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