If these are “racist” against Africans/Caribbean’s then all of Stormwind is “racist” against Europeans.
1 Like
Oh boy, I feel like it’s about to get real spicy in here
Immediately after that and in several posts before/after. I repeatedly state that coding in and of itself is not bad. I (and others) make it clear that issue it gets ugly is how you WoW frames, portrays, and writes it. How they use it.
And that part is racist. Because the role of indigenous people in old adventure stories = squatting around in ruins of past glories, waiting for explorers and settlers in search of (their) treasure. They lob spears at them and kidnap them for sacrifices to dark gods by evil witchdoctors with bones in their nose. They’re dehumanized and otherized because the writers/audience didn’t feel like they should feel bad for trespassing/claiming/plundering/genociding/colonizing and these were a convenient way to do that and not feel bad. These were portrayed as not “good” people who do “good” things. They were “bad” compared to you, so you shouldn’t feel bad when they get what’s coming to them. Because they’re X-race.
It’s when WoW uses Trolls (among other races) that the coding becomes bad and racist.
When WoW has other races regularly engage in the genocide/displacement of Trolls in lore and quests (even killing their children) and it’s not actually acknowledged as genocide/displacement. Worse yet, it paints the Trolls as the ones deserving of this fate, who just gave the other people no other choice.
That’s when all the other coding becomes bad. That’s when the racism comes in.
11 Likes
It’s bad when the coding is people of color, in other words.
Because the displacement of Night Elves from their native land isn’t bad, right? The Warsong were completely right to push into Ashenvale and desecrate their Holy places?
it doesn’t matter so much because Nelves are European/Asian coded.
Again, its such a childish perspective. Warcraft relies heavily on the unreliable narrator. Primarily because it’s a reliable excuse when confronted with plot holes and inconsistencies.
More than that though, it provides context to cultural perspective. Of course Vol’jin is going to be portrayed as some Filthy savage. That is filtered through the lens of an Alliance Champion. All of which has a predisposition to perceive Trolls negatively.
Again, in your perspective, the only acceptable portrayal is the Alliance filling the role of some bloated anti-capitalist political cartoon, throwing uneaten scraps from their castle walls to the Horde of starving and oppressed peasants below. Which, again, is a childish thing to expect.
1 Like
There is no power struggle against white people. Therefor you can’T be racist against white people in white dominated countries. Minorites however gets the shaft. And oh boi minority coded people is what the Horde is made of is about. Like Mayans with the trolls. Or african and mongol culture with the Orcs. The internal racism against these codes is very problematics. just like the whole “But the dirty savages deserved it!” stick.
It’s not childish. it is the truth.
1 Like
Sure you can. But that’s a entirely seperate topic.
Prejudice is not the same as racism.
1 Like
No! Again, I made it clear above that…
Is not bad in and of itself. It’s when you couple that with all the other stuff Blizzard does with Trolls.
The genocide/displacement of Night Elves is a bad thing. No, the Warsong are not right to just barrel in and harvest lumber. Sylvanas was not right to launch her war into Ashenvale/Dakrshore and it was wrong to burn down Teldrassil.
And you don’t even need me to tell you that because Blizzard makes this all oh so very clear in the game. Conflict with Night Elves and their death/suffering is like Blizzard’s go to shorthand for “WAR IS BAD AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!”
The Alliance player has encountered many Horde leaders. None of them were framed like this. The Horde player meets many Alliance leaders that we’re supposed to hate. None are so explicitly framed in a negative light.
No because first of all, the role of bloated anti-capitalist political cartoon in WoW is taken by the Bilgewater Goblins.
Rather if I were going to reframe things, both the Alliance and Horde would be portrayed as the expansionist imperialist and racist powers they are, then explore the idea that people aren’t demons/angels and society is complicated and multifaceted and this is a world of conflict, and not have the narrative fumble over itself trying come up with portrayals of “this expansionist imperialist racist power is doing it for pragmatic/selfish/evulz reasons and that imperialist racist power is doing it for benevolent/selfless/good ones.”
Oh yeah, and the Alliance could definitely stand to be a bit more diverse in its influences. Between Kul Tiras, Gilneas, Stormwind, and 2/3 of the Dwarven clans, and Celtic themes of the Night Elves, it draws a lot from just the British Isles.
Draenei as a whole probably draw the least from all the western European influences… by instead having Eastern European accents and what I’m assuming is an alternate take on the faith of the Light might possibly be trying to invoke something like the relationship between Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches. Outside of that, the Night Elves have a little bit of Japanese/Korean expressed largely in some of their architecture, and references to food.
8 Likes
Hating someone based on the color of their skin is still bad, not matter what term you want to attach to it.
What a stupid, racist perspective. Racism is purely based upon the belief that there are traits and capabilities tied to someone’s race. Therefore some races are superior or inferior than others.
It has nothing to do with “Power struggle” whatever that means. Which you say as if races are monolithic political parties. Which is so disgusting, I feel physically ill.
Lol, Hokay.
1 Like
And here is the thing. THe game always shows the white european humans in the right. While the savages, lets say the trolls, get the shaft and lose simply for being a “filthy savage race” This is part of the racism that is exploited and supported by the story telling. And it needs to stop. Trolls (just one example) need to have their big victory just like the white humans always get it.
I’m not disagreeing with you on the whole Savages must be beaten/broken at all costs is a bad thing to put out there. That’s a terrible message to send. I just disagree with the notion, that colored people can’t be racist against white people.
1 Like
Exactly what I’m saying. This story development needs to stop.
2 Likes
Yeah right, in BfA maybe. They did no such thing with the Warsong, who came in and killed a Holy Figure with demonic magic. And continued to deforest sacred Ashenvale throughout WoW’s history.
Cata never painted it as wrong. Hell, Stonetalon is the infamous example of “Honorable” Garrosh… You know, immediately after the Horde exterminated a school full of children. Just saying
Which, unlike the Frostmane, they are explicitly described as children. Where as the Frostmane Welps are larger than the Dwarves and Gnomes who come after them, armed with weapons, and say things like “Killing you will be easy”
Hardly children, but you have always been desperate to drive home Troll victimhood.
The Horde came rampaging through Ashenvale, and when it was all said and done, the Night Elves had to GIVE UP Azshara to the Horde. Which is then polluted and strip mined by the Goblins!
Even in BfA, the invasion of Kaldorei Territory is portrayed as a completely justified thing until the Burning of Teldrassil. I am on these forums all the time listening to Dreadmoore, Spudd, Drakyn and even you whinge and moan about BfA portraying something bad as… bad. BuT mUh TrOlLs!
THEN, I gotta listen to YOU presume my motives, and attack my character with this vomit of untruth
Why? Because I disagree with you and certain details? We don’t even entirely disagree. I have been saying the Alliance is Human imperialism for YEARS.
But I don’t quite share your Troll victim complex quite as much (Even though I have vocally supported the Amani) so, to hell with me, right?
Climb on down from your ridiculously tall high horse.
3 Likes
the word a r y a n isn’t allowed on the forums. lmao.
2 Likes
Reminds me of the scene from Disney’s Pocohonas, when both sides considered each other “savages”…
Point being, you’re wrong. Blizzard aren’t portraying them using “Racial stereotypes.” They’re portraying them as regular, normal (if alien) people using established cultures as their template, and allowing YOU to see your own racism reflected in them.
Because “savage” is relative to who’s perspective you’re looking from. And Blizzard has played that against you without you even noticing.
The killing of Cenrarious, the fighting in Ashenvale is never portrayed as something the Night Elves deserve. On the contrary, the death of Cenarius is considered a tragedy.
Garrosh is clearly made out to be a warmonger and he ultimately becomes the villain of all and gets killed. And his “honorable” moment was personally executing someone who specifically attacked Night Elf civilians.
And indeed, the War of Thorns was initially presented as a more ruthless/pragmatic than out and out evil- but Blizzard couldn’t let that last for long. It had to suddenly turn it into a story about evils of the Horde and the suffering of Night Elves.
As if we hadn’t just come out of Legion, where a global invasion of the greatest foe all of Azeroth had even known became largely a story about the old Kal’dorei Empire.
Furthermore, Azshara’s not framed as deserving of its fate, and the game doesn’t try to make it look like what the Goblins are doing is anything other than what it is.
Never does Blizzard try to make it seem like the Night Elves deserve their fate. There’s no attempt to paint the whole scenario as, “Well the Horde didn’t want to do any of this. They just wanted peace. But the Night Elves would not relent in their savage reprisals until the Horde no choice but to defeat them in battle so that they could truly prosper. Now all is well.”
Blizzard keeps the conflict in Northern Kalimdor as its go to for the cycle of hatred, the spark that ignites the next war, and a very bad thing. Not a heroic tale of the Horde forging a better/safer life for itself by slaughtering Kalimdor natives- who are regularly dehumanized and treated without any sympathy.
When Blizzard wants to tell that story, they have the Horde champion kill Quillboar, Gnolls, and Centaur instead.
Yes you do call out Human Impriealism, particularly as you dislike how it tramples over Night Elf identity.
But you’re always quick to deny/defend/dismiss instances of Night Elf imperialism. And even some instances of this Alliance/Human Imperialism when it applies outside the Alliance.
And if we’re going to talking about which warcraft race gets the most overblown boohoo’ing about their terrible treatment, either in the game’s narrative or via proxies on the forums, nobody holds a candle to the Night Elves- even as they get entire zones dedicated to them and their lore, a whole novel series covering their history, and get their likeness plastered onto the cover of the game, and continue to be one up there as one of the most widely played races.
Let go of your entitlement.
12 Likes
Clearly, the one to blame is that person who ordered it. And if Blizzard doesn’t want to mention it with the “new new” Jaina, its because they know it is at odds with trying to make her a noble hero and friend of the Horde.
So its amnesia about it. (“Purge? What purge?”)
You mean this one small act? After decades of the Alliance treating the Forsaken as monsters who don’t have a right to live? This one act, which Andiun wasn’t sure he could pull off because most of his court and people weren’t willing to see the Forsaken as anything but monsters?
I mean, the Horde just gave Sira to Tryande, that is more significant act than that.
Jaina also wouldn’t have tried to purge Dalaran if she was moral enough to realize punishing innocent people because they were the wrong race was immoral.
- Why is the Horde evil? Because the commit atrocities.
- What isn’t the Alliance evil because of their atrocities? Alliance atrocities aren’t atrocities because the Horde is evil.
- Whey is the Horde evil? See #1.
But you are right, the list of bad things the Alliance has done does go on.
As I pointed out, the murder of the miners occurred before the expedition. Sapphonnetta was captured during the expedition.
3 Likes
When Blizzard uses Trolls like stock adventure fodder: squatting around in ruins of past glories, waiting for explorers and settlers in search of (their) treasure. They lob spears at them and kidnap them for sacrifices to dark gods by evil witchdoctors with bones in their nose. They’re dehumanized and otherized because the writers/audience didn’t feel like they should feel bad for trespassing/claiming/plundering/genociding/colonizing and these were a convenient way to do that and not feel bad. These were portrayed as not “good” people who do “good” things. They were “bad” compared to you, so you shouldn’t feel bad when they get what’s coming to them. Because they’re X-race.
That is not them treating them like normal people.
It is not treating them like normal people.
When WoW has other races regularly engage in the genocide/displacement of Trolls in lore and quests (even killing their children) and it’s not actually acknowledged as genocide/displacement. Worse yet, it paints the Trolls as the ones deserving of this fate, who just gave the other people no other choice.
It is not treating them like normal people.
Now don’t get me wrong. Blizzard has treated them more like normal people before. I love it when it happens. I want more of it. But treating them like normal people is complicated when you have a bunch of the above situations and the narrative and people act like that’s just perfectly okay.
And the fact that Disney’s Pocahontas bent over backwards to sanitize the tale and make it more tolerable from the point of view of it’s largely non-Indigenous American audience makes it another example of just how used to this stuff we are as an audience.
9 Likes
Single decade.
1 Like