Why don't Tauren join the Alliance?

[Drakyn-dalaran (Drakyn)]

@Akiyass-moon-guard

@Drakyn-dalaran

A profoundly blatant and shameful cop-out that conflates identifying racist coding with endorsing it.

Hey man, I am not the one who plays and apologizes for the faction of racist caricatures. I just find it odd that you think that way and still shamelessly endorse it with the same breath.

Well, if it’s ‘play as racist caricature’ or ‘play as the NOBLE HERO TRIUMPHING OVER THE EVIL RACIST CARICATURES THAT THREATEN ALL THAT IS WHOLESOME AND GOOD’…
…But in all seriousness that’s why my sub’s on its last three months ever. I strongly encourage quitting, and hey, even if you don’t want to do it for my reasons, Shadowlands looks like a trashfire anyways, so there’s no shortage of ways to talk yourself into saving $12-a-month. Bobby Kotick don’t need no raise anyhow.

@Drakyn-dalaran

A little more condescension on this, please.

I mean, everything you are spouting is just the regurgitation of white supremist propaganda, you understand that, right? This entire argument was started by white supremist groups in an attempt to say the LotR trilogy was pro White Supremacy and Nord Supremacy in it’s intention. Which is fundamentally not true. Tolkien opposed all forms of Racism, not just European Racism in WW2, but in Asia and South Africa as well. He was very vocal about it, and LotR supports an anti racism message as one of it’s core messages…

Which is certainly fitting for you. Someone who is going to perceive everything through the lens of race, and interpret dated, near 100 year old language as malicious, racially charged slurs. It would make sense the one equivocates Hunched over trolls, and creatures meant to embody the ugliness of racial superiority and over industrialization, would be parroting white supremist talking points…

This is just ‘NO U’ and I think I already gave THAT more than enough coverage last time in six sentences.
That said, I am impressed that you admitted white supremacist scum found Tolkien’s works so attractive in spite of his own opinions on racism, and his specific anger at how hitler’s germany had taken a mythology he admired and perverted it for horrible ends. A wonderful example of how stated good intentions (‘hitler can eat my dictionary’) can be undermined by bad actions (‘yeah i based my dwarves on jews and described them as greedy cowards, what of it? also satan’s quest to destroy the fair and blonde saxons is served by a horde of people-shaped monsters with no capacity for good, and they look like ‘mongol-types.’ ask me about my opinions on the black men of far harad!’).
Lord of the Rings take-home messages: bloodlines are tremendously important; some people are inherently better than others; your enemies are an amorphous and corrupt monstrous mass who aren’t real people (but look like real people - the foreign, ‘less-lovely’ kind) and must be eradicated before they harm you. Also, allegedly, racism is bad.
Yeah, I wonder why horrible bigots were eager to adopt it in spite of its author hating them?

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

Ahh I see you finally awoke Akiyass’ wrath. Good luck she can deal while I am busy with work.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

@Drakyn-dalaran

This is just ‘NO U’

No it isn’t.

It is literally how this whole thing started. The claim that Tolkien and Lord of the Rings was racist was originally claimed by white supremist groups.

And it’s odd to me, that the guy who is going to play and avidly defense the Horde, the faction by his own perception, has racist caricatures of Caribbean, African, MesoAmerican, Native American, and jews, in their line-up of playable, monstrous races, is also going to parrot white supremist talking points.

It’s just telling, is all I am saying.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

I don’t think Akiyass is the person you should want arguing in your defense in this case.

[Drakyn-dalaran (Drakyn)]

@Zerde-sargeras

Ahh I see you finally awoke Akiyass’ wrath. Good luck she can deal while I am busy with work.

If ‘wrath’ means ‘will quote increasingly short fragments of your post while furiously ignoring everything else and occasionally also ignoring the fragments,’ then don’t worry, I’m about done here. I’ve said my piece, I’ve explained my piece six times over, and I’m not interested in spending more time than that typing up words that won’t be read.
and seriously, seriously, seriously, seriously:

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t think Akiyass is the person you should want arguing in your defense in this case.

[Elathaah-stormrage]

@Zerde-sargeras

@Elathaah-stormrage

That is OK, if you are willing to admit that both sides do evil things. Which still raises the questions about why it is Horde actions that are ever developed further. And doesn’t do much for the Alliance “good”, Horde “evil” narrative

Anduin literally mentions the two worse names in Alliance history, Arthas and Daelin. The fact both sides can do evil things was never in question, it was more that Horde did more of those evils things and until recently have never done anything to actually make up for it.

As an example, even if one can consider Daelin evil for restarting the war, Jaina let him die and the Alliance actually didnt help Kul Tiras pursue any retaliatory war. Where as the same can hardly ever be said of the Horde.

Of course Blizzard mentions Daelin, it was comfortably in the past, was prevented by a “noble Alliance hero” (and nicely substitutes for less comfortable things in the character’s past. (“Purge? What purge?”) And Arthas is going to be redeemed in the next expansion.

Though what did the Alliance do to “make up for” Arthas is b beyond me? You mean you fought him? Like the Horde fought Garrosh?

And if course, you can’t prove a general statement by cherry picking examples. The idea that the Horde has done more evil is the same old meme where one goes and expresses outrage at the all the Horde stuff that there is “no excuse for” while excusing everything the Alliance did ("those shop keepers desireved to be killed!)

And, in the end, b being “less evil” doesn’t give my scope for claiming the moral high ground.

@Elathaah-stormrage

Note, the killing of the miners is explicitly done to get samples of the unknown substance. The expedition is decided on after Magni tells the Alliance what Azerite is. It has to have occured before.

It wouldnt be unknown at the time if said goblins didnt kill “the competition” earlier.

So I guess we are accepting that the miners were killed before the expedition.

But two Goblins making a vague reference to “competition” give the Alliance the right to kill any Goblin they want. That is racist blame. (Aside from the fact that they didn’t even know about it.)

I would say it more of the nature of Warcraft’s war. Civilians that actually participate in supporting the war(builders, miners, cooks etc) are considered valid targets by both sides.

If you really believe that then you would have to say that Teldrassil was justified?

I mean, people talk about no applying modern morality (though, in fact Blizzard does just that, all the time, in spite of Ion’s commnents about “morally grey”). But the fact is that the Romans probably would have label the burning of Teldrasil as a “great victory”.

Theramore keeps getting brought up because a major character’s defining event was tied to that event. The same cant be said for any of the remaining major Horde characters.

While the Purge of Dalaran and attempted at Orgrimmar are minor events the in the characters past not even worth mentioning? A fine example of how Bliz handles this stuff.

@Elathaah-stormrage

Yes, because the Horde must apologize for thefts before the Alliance can be expected to apologize for killings.

But the worst part is that it isn’t even just that one side is apologizing is getting white washed. On top of that Blizzard is expecting Horde players to accept Jaina as friend.

When said theft was of a weapon of mass destruction which had it been used properly would have ended up killing thousands of Alliance life and starting the chain of event that ultimately led to the purge, yes they should.

So what this says is that the Horde must apologize for things they might have done before any Alliance character can be held to account for what they did do.

I guess the Horde is “theoretically” evil while the Alliance is “actually” evil?

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

Akiyass intentionally omits posts to rob them of their context while delivering equally short rapid fire posts that don’t actually say anything, but serve to bury the original posts so other people can’t read them and learn anything.

They also famously refuse to acknowledge anything in WoW that could be construed as insensitive without some kind of ulterior motive. Not just in regards to race/ethnicity, but also sex, gender, orientation, etc. Largely because they believe claims of systemic discrimination in real life to be generally overblown and find it offensive to even suggest that it’s anyone’s responsibility to address it.

Edit: They will of course argue otherwise. Possibly even including a “lol” or a “hon” or something in an attempt to be condescending and elicit an emotional response. However, given how often they post on these forums, I simply invite everyone to observe their post history and judge for themselves.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

@Drakyn-dalaran

while furiously ignoring everything else

Not ignoring it. I just see the base premise of your position problematic. Before I can address anything you’ve said, I first have to address the very fact that you are equivocating monstrous races (and in the case of LotR, Monstrous races designed to embody an idealistic evil, such as racism) with real life ethnic groups, while also parroting white supremist propaganda.

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

Not just in regards to race/ethnicity, but also sex, gender, orientation, etc. Largely because they believe claims of systemic discrimination in real life to be generally overblown and find it offensive to even suggest that it’s anyone’s responsibility to address it.

Not sure where this is coming from. I am a vocal feminist on the forums, and I have been called an SJW multiple times…

Hell, I am a Bi, non-binary, feminist. The hell you mean I refuse to acknowledge anything in WoW that could be construed as insensitive in relation to Sex and gender?

I have talked at length about Richard Knaack’s sexism multiple times… And I have been crucified for talking about sexism in the WoW community and Blizzard’s writing…

AND I have been beat up for talking about the Alliance glorifying Imperialism, and WoW as a whole incidentally sending a message of Racial generalization as a logical basis of judgment…

The hell are you on about?

Go ask Zerde, or Kat, or Faelia, or whoever Kaiylin’s mouth piece is. I forget her name… We have argued these issues several times.

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

or a “hon”

Ew, I have never said “hon” in my entire life.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

@Drakyn-dalaran

@Akiyass-moon-guard

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

indigenously coded people

Just say Troll, man.

If you are looking at hunched over, tusked, warty cannibals’ and interpreting that as a code for a real ethnic group, that’s… Not good. Don’t do that.

I have bad news about racist caricatures, my dude: they involve taking ethnic groups and ghoulishly mocking them as inhuman. Trolls are a giant ball of ‘savage native’ racist slurs and stereotypes straight out of pulp adventure novels mixed with real indigenous signifiers like (bad) Caribbean accents, vodou/vodun, and quasi-mesoamerican pyramids. Recognizing a racist caricature for what it is doesn’t grant you membership into the white hood club.

Indeed. Trolls in WoW…

1. Practice a religion called 'Voodoo" that is chock full of references to West African and derived religions.
2. Speak with an African inspired accent
3. Have temple cities featuring Precolumbian stone pyramids, are said to ritually sacrifice their foes, and they wield macuahuitl-style weapons.
4. Travel about in outrigger canoes, triangular shaped sail boats, wear tiki masks and live in Polynesian style stilt houses.
5. Fill all the same narrative role in WoW that indigenous natives fill in turn of the century adventure stories.

To not notice any of that and instead conclude that indigenous coding/tropes comes from them being blue, tusked, and hunched over requires a lot of ignorance. Legitimate or disingenuously feigned.

Coding in and of itself is not a bad thing either. It’s a valid tool in storytelling. It’s not people who can see the coding and ask people be mindful of it who are the problem. The problem is people who can’t see or refuse to acknowledge the coding. Or who see it but don’t feel like it matters at all. These people tend to continue to engage in some pretty ugly storytelling and the perpetuation of ugly tropes involving said coding.

[Zerde-sargeras (Zerde)]

@Elathaah-stormrage

Of course Blizzard mentions Daelin, it was comfortably in the past, was prevented by a “noble Alliance hero” (and nicely substitutes for less comfortable things in the character’s past. (“Purge? What purge?”) And Arthas is going to be redeemed in the next expansion.

If the Purge wasn’t mentioned it is because Blizzard considers it a very “gray” moment. Really, if you want someone to blame for the Purge, blame Garrosh.

@Elathaah-stormrage

Though what did the Alliance do to “make up for” Arthas is b beyond me? You mean you fought him? Like the Horde fought Garrosh?

Well for one Anduin actually tried to reunite the broken Families Arthas destroyed. But we all know what happened after.

@Elathaah-stormrage

The idea that the Horde has done more evil is the same old meme where one goes and expresses outrage at the all the Horde stuff that there is “no excuse for” while excusing everything the Alliance did

My point of view is if the Alliance has committed evil thing most of it is usually because of the Horde. Again, Jaina wouldn’t have tried to purge Dalaran if Garrosh and the Horde player didnt steal the bell/implicate the Sunreavers. Genn wouldnt be so gunho against Slyvanas if she didnt invade his city and kill his kid. The list goes on and on.

@Elathaah-stormrage

But two Goblins making a vague reference to “competition” give the Alliance the right to kill any Goblin they want. That is racist blame.

Or we as players were never told. It is clear by the time we got Silithus plenty of things had already happened. Not the least of which being Saphonnetta being captured. At that point in time it was already a cold war and unlike the real world the factions dont have rules against who is not an enemy combatant.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

I do not think taking inspiration from the real world is necessarily a (or meant to be a) caricature.

For instance, Night Elves have some Nordic and Celtic themes. With the names of their World Trees clearly Nordic, and their druidism seeming to be very Cernunnos, and Elune being similar to the Triple Goodess of WIcca. They also have Torii archways, which are associated with Shintoism. Vague Korean cuisine.

Like Trolls, it is an amalgamation of many cultures, not a caricature of anything.

What ever you are seeing is just that… what YOU see.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

Wow’s use of racial coding with Trolls doesn’t just stop at surface inspiration. WoW also makes use of many of the negative stereotypes associated with Trolls. It also recreates the genocide/displacement of these people by “good” peoples in basically a fantasy version of Concolonization- then refuses to acknowledge it as such.

If WoW did Night Elves the same way, it’d prominently introduce elements that play on common ugly Celtic, Japanese, and Korean stereotypes/tropes. Then it’d have them all genocide/displaced by a group with coding of their historical colonizers. Then it’d tried to argue the case that the people doing it were actually good and it wasn’t really genocide/colonization and that the Night Elves deserved it because of >insert ugly Celtic/Japanese/Korean stereotypes/tropes<.

But they generally don’t dwell too much on the negative aspects of Human/Elven culture and when they get genocided (even when they strike first) it gets played up for pathos.

Actually, there is a situation where this happens to Celtic-coded people. The Drust. And as I point out earlier, it’s just as messed up there too. But because it was perpetrated by Humans who did the genocide/colonizing, it’s not treated as something terrible. The narrative paints the Drust as being deserving of their fate, and this doesn’t reflect badly on the Kul Tirans at all.

Again, coding isn’t bad in and of itself. But you also have to be aware of how you use it.

[Namira-skeram]

jesus what even is this thread

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

People who think that racist elements aren’t really a big deal in media and if you see it anywhere it’s because you’re the racist.

[Avetra-lightbringer]

Yeah I always felt that Blizz making the majority of the Drust evil was a cop out. If they were evil monster people then genociding them was a-okay! A missed opportunity there to be sure.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

It also recreates the genocide/displacement of these people by “good” peoples in basically a fantasy version of Concolonization- then refuses to acknowledge it as such.

Such is true with several races, not just Trolls. The issue you have here isn’t about the representation and recreation of certain ethnic group’s and their history. The issue here is that you are salty that this Horde race isn’t vindicated for their reasons to hate the Alliance.

But we are talking about the displacement of native peoples, hardly any Horde player would hold the same Standard to the Warsong, who had been encroaching and settling in Night Elf land since WC3.

“The Night Elves attacked first, so they are in the wrong” I have seen so often, but cant the same be true for the Amani?

This is the problem when you look at everything through the lens of race. The displacement of the trolls is bad because they are supposed caricatures of people of color. The displacement of the Night Elves? Completely justified.

Shows that the action is not enough to be immoral, it’s who that action is taken against that matters. Which doesn’t get much more racist than that.

@Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord

Then it’d have them all genocide/displaced by a group with coding of their historical colonizers.

I can make a real argument that compares the westernizing of Japan with the Night Elves role in the Alliance. I have not said so blatantly, but the issue with the Alliance homogenizing itself into Human themes really makes it a fair comparison. With Tyrande’s dissatisfaction with Anduin, maybe we will see a Satsuma Rebellion arch.

No one talks about that, though. Because nelves are not “coded” as people of color, apparently.

It’s such a stupid argument. Even if we are to assume it’s intentional… Is it so problematic to use history as a model for world building? Because it’s not written in a way that paints the Alliance as evil, fat, imperialists, throwing the scraps of their feasts to the starving hordes of peasants outside their castle?

That is such a childish thing to expect.

Edit: if we want to say Blizzard has a bias that favors humans, I will agree with you. I am just not sure it’s a race issue.

[Tamanii-wyrmrest-accord (Tamanii)]

@Avetra-lightbringer

Yeah I always felt that Blizz making the majority of the Drust evil was a cop out. If they were evil monster people then genociding them was a-okay! A missed opportunity there to be sure.

Pretty much. Even ignoring the ugly moral lessons- this tendency to try and justify one culture completely wiping out another by portraying the victims as just completely unreasonable and somehow deserving of extinction, while working hard to try and absolve the killers- and claiming it to be “shades of gray” is just insulting.

A missed opportunity at telling a story with potentially nuance, varied viewpoints, and greater depth. Or just plain more variety in terms of characters.

[Akiyass-moon-guard (Akiyass)]

@Avetra-lightbringer

Yeah I always felt that Blizz making the majority of the Drust evil was a cop out. If they were evil monster people then genociding them was a-okay!

I will agree here. I run a Warcraft D&D game, and really tried to show the nuance of the Drust situation when my party went to Kul Tiras. Was pretty sad when no one took their side.

In their defense though, Lucille Waycrest is pretty cool.

[Avetra-lightbringer]

Yeah for sure. Could have made the situation more complicated, put the colonizers in a worse light. Maybe give Zorak Thul (sp) more nuance than BBEG who is mad he can’t be evil in the living world anymore. Make him similar to Marvels characterization of Killmonger…a guy who’s right but whose methods are just as bad as the oppressors.

[anon95961490]

@Drakyn-dalaran

Well, if it’s ‘ play as racist caricature ’ or ‘ play as the NOBLE HERO TRIUMPHING OVER THE EVIL RACIST CARICATURES THAT THREATEN ALL THAT IS WHOLESOME AND GOOD ’…

She is ofc being in bad faith but I just wanna jump in to point out most people playing the game probably don’t even think of it in this way, and for that reason isn’t really determinant of what we can say about them (which is one of the reasons why it’s a dumb accusation on her part anyways). Most people probably just think “Oh this looks cool, I want my guy to be a knight” or “Oh this looks cool I wanna be a big strong Orc” or w/e else. It’s simplistic smash and kill adventure and most people just pick what they think looks cool. Like they’re not going “Oh yeah I want to be this disgusting racist caricature” or “I want to be a valiant White Man that smashes these non-westerners” (at least most of the time that isn’t the thought process). I just think that’s important to keep in mind and to keep separate from discussing how rotten the story is.

But also, yeah, we should all quit. The story is rotten and the ‘gameplay’ is increasingly trashier.