The more I see orcs having little nuclear families the sadder I become for what could have been. Perhaps if Blizz gave their audience more credit, they could’ve actually explored this “culture clash” that’s present in Wow, but we get what we get.
Yes, it does.
Because if they weren’t criminals doing the exact same thing, then clearly the problem isn’t the Alliance hired criminals, the problem is people acting our their own vengeance in spite of the Alliance’s objections.
No he isn’t. The Drunk Driver is responsible. The person who gave him the keys should have been a better friend, but he is not responsible for his friend’s poor decisions.
But you don’t know who he gave it too. So it’s a moot point.
I disagree. The military can reform a person. And soldiers with no criminal background at all can go AWOL and do some horrible things as well. I grew up with stories about my Grandfather in WW2. He was Polish, sufferer through the initial Blitzkrieg and family being put into death camps. He was a highly educated man with no criminal record. Yet, he was not always an upstanding example of what a soldier should be. It happens, regrettably, but welcome to war. It’s not exactly uncommon.
And if they didn’t, and the Horde defeated them, then there would be no one left to protect Azeroth from the Horde.
The Horde is the only reason the Alliance had to do it.
The only time the Horde stopped mining Azerite is when the Alliance made them stop.
Not nearly as many as who suffered during the War of Thorns. Which was senseless, and served no greater good at all. As long as that is the enemy I am fighting, I do not believer there is a line that can be crossed.
But that’s me.
Sure it is. Soldiers are held individually responsible for the actions they take that are against direct orders.
I do not think I have made any of these claims. I have only refuted the very specific claims made in this thread. If yall want me to make a list of all the bad things the Alliance has done, I am more than willing. I just don’t think those things are the same as the things you all are claiming.
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Kind of hard to believe that the Alliance didn’t know what was going to happen to them. Very easy to believe though that they didn’t care.
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Maybe, but that is not the impression I got when I did the quest. I do not think it is terribly difficult to believe that the Quillboar were actively trying to not be notice before the battle began.
Unlike Thrall who’s always green/friendly. when he’s coming to beg the Alliance for help, those two remained flag as brown/angry, the flag for hostile but not targetable when they paid their visit to Anduin.
The entire reason he did it was because he wanted them to escape, though.
I wanted to ensure that they could escape the fighting, and many did, finding refuge in the north.
Also, can someone clarify where the Quilboar are mentioned in all this? I never find it on WoWpedia.
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It wouldn’t be entirely surprising if the Alliance didn’t quite recognize the degree to which the Horde hasn’t entirely pacified their territory yet. The EK Alliance in particular is comprised of nations who’ve been there a long time and traditionally kept things pretty well-policed and under control. But Eastern Kalimdor isn’t like human or dwarf lands, where most of the local threats have been quelled for generations and large gatherings of hostile races like gnolls and ice trolls are rare enough to be notable when they actually happen. Technically Mulgore, the Barrens and Durotar all belonged to just the centaur, quillboar and harpies not that long ago, so sizable stretches of it are still controlled by those original inhabitants, with only the centaur being truly driven out.
Plus with the Cataclysm having just occurred and the Overgrowth run amok, the quillboar in particular are noted throughout questing to have been moving around a lot and turning up in force where neither faction was expecting them.
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So then why are we blaming Saurfang for actions taken by Sylvanas agents that were contradictory to his orders? She did put him in charge of leading the armies assaulting the region and he tried to do it honorably and with minimal civilian casualties. Sylvanas goes behind his back and has them all killed anyway. Somehow it’s Saurfang’s fault but the AWOL soldiers at Taurajo aren’t Hawthorne’s fault.
Double Standars.
The drunk behind the wheel is the one who goes to jail, yes. The person who gave them the keys doesn’t, but he does get a bad mark on his reputation for doing something so blatantly irresponsible.
I know he gave it to my toon. You know he gave it to your toon. That’s really all that matters.
But they still did it, despite promises. “Because we had no choice” is a convenient excuse to break a promise.
Again, a convenient excuse.
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Goldshire, Westfall, Darkshore, Khaz Modan, and the folks at Lakeshore beg to disagree. if they weren’t so secretive about it, the Gnomes of Gnomeregan would add their two cents as well.
Well, I blame Saurfang individually for being weak willed enough into being talked into an unjust war. I don’t think he is evil, I think he is sad, old and useless.
If you want to say the Alliance leadership was negligent, by all means. You cannot say they are evil though. Well, unless you want to believe they corralled them into the Quillboar on purpose, but I didn’t get that impression when I did the quest.
Our characters are not cannon. Only the nameless and faceless champion of Azeroth is. We don’t know who or what they are.
I suppose they could have let the Horde win the war, then mine Azeoth hollow. They already killed their last planet, what’s one more?
An excuse I wouldn’t have if the Horde was the least bit decent.
And just so everyone can maybe settle down, I am not an Alliance fanboy. I am an unapologetic night elf fanboy, sure. But I also happen to draw a very clear distinction between night elves and the rest of the Alliance. I think the Alliance is imperialist. I think it’s an Imperialistic system of control organized by Stormwind to lure in other Kingdoms into voluntarily acting as their vassal states. When the flag of Stormwind becomes synonymous with the flag representing the entire Alliance, when non-humans are dressed head to toe in Stormwind colors and Stormwind uniforms. When the position of High King is a human and follows the human tradition of hereditary succession. That is not a cooperation of like-minded nations, that is political dominance.
The sins of the Alliance, in my perspective, is more attributed to humanity against other races of the Alliance, more so than it is attributed to Alliance against the Horde. If Shaw wasn’t completely incompetent as a spy, The War of Thorns would never of happened. If I want to put on my tinfoil hat, I might suspect that it was done on purpose as a means of justifying another war with the Horde. Not by Anduin, but by his close friends and advisors who have no desire for peace.
So again, I have no love for the Alliance. I just see their sins as different than what you all see. Their have been atrocities committed by Alliance aligned groups. Such as Bael’Modan and the Stonespire. And sure, you all can say that there is a lack of Alliance holding their associates responsible…. That isn’t something specific to the Alliance either though. The Horde never held the Warsong responsible, or Sylvanas responsible for her actions during Cata, or Goblins polluting the Thunderfury River and environmentally destroying Azshara, not have they done anything about the Crimson Ring buying slaves from Ogrimmar’s prisons.
I do not necessarily blame them for these actions either, because at the end of the day, you either support your allies in spite of their misdeeds for the sake of unity, or you damage or burn bridges with the people who you might need to come save you one day.
What I -do- blame the Horde for is what their leadership has done. What they did under Blackhand, Doomhammer, Garrosh, and Sylvanas. Is the Horde evil? As an institution, I will say the Horde has done enough damage to be considered a threat to world peace. That is not the same thing as counting every individual person of the Horde as an inherently evil thing.
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Catapult fire can’t burn world trees. Teldrassil was an inside job.
Seriously though, for a brief moment at the start of BfA, I believed the story would take this route.
Would Graymane throw nelves under the bus because he demands blood? Dunno. Maybe someone else would.
Yeah, I had a theory that Shaw did it.
I mean, Blizzard wants me to believe that the Alliance had all these spys in Orgrimmar, and still had no idea that there was an invasion of Ashenvale planned?
It’s not like the maneuver was ground breaking… They went to the Barrens, and said “Sike” and went the other way…
Old and sad? Yes. Understandable given he lost a child. Useless? Hardly. He was still one of the best warriors the Horde had. Also, just incase you weren’t paying attention, he gave up his own life in a Mak’gora against Sylvanas so there didn’t have to be a full on assault on Ogrimmar, effectively saving a lot of lives.
Including Alliance lives, I might add.
Doesn’t sound all that useless to me.
That was actually my point from the very beginning. Not evil, but very negligent and stupid.
Thanks for finally agreeing.
We’re kind of playing the role of the “nameless, faceless champions of Azeroth” so it works out for everyone involved. That’s how RPGs work.
Or they could, you know, own up to the fact that they went back on their promise for the purpose of survival and say so to Magni. He’s a pretty understanding dude, after all.
Except by then fighting between Horde and Alliance was over, armistice was signed, things were at relative peace. Horde was even going so far as abolishing the Warchief position to and forming a council to prevent future dictators from carrying them into needless wars.
Despite that though, their civilians still get tortured because “Horde is indecent”.
Oh wait! The Void singled out the Orc Mom in particular for Alleria to torture even though they all knew something, because why again? Oh Yeah! It’s the Frickin’ Void! Torture the innocent and vulnerable because it’s fun is kind of their thing. Alleria’s actively listening to it and Turalyon’s helping her because they’re all freaked out by Sylvanas. Essentially the Void’s playing on their fears to have some of its own happy fun times.
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I was certain it was Jaina or Azshara.
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I mean, Tyrande and most of the Kaldorei weren’t there, so it doesn’t matter to me who he saved. He is the only reason the Horde got to the shore and was able to burn Teldrassil, so for me personally, it was all too little, too late.
He wasn’t evil, but he was old, sad and useless. Maybe you like him, I don’t.
I never disagreed with you on that. I was specifically arguing against the Alliance acting with evil intent.
Most of this conversation has been you attributing motive, and not listening to what I am actually saying. I suspect because of your own Horde bias.
But we are talking about the lore objectively. Saying “Well we just don’t know, so we have to assume everyone as a heart of Azeroth” is just completely backwards.
The data here is not conclusive, thus not useful in any analysis. Which was my point. You can’t use corrupted data as an argument for objective truth.
Theirs and Azeroth’s survival, yes.
Yes, but Sylvanas is still at large. So the fighting really isn’t over. And any Horde that still protects her is not worth getting all bent out of shape over.
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I don’t think they would ever make Jaina a bad guy. Frankly, I’m not sure if I’d want that. Unlike a lot of people, I find her completely unoffensive. Let her be “good”.
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I was certain of it.
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Which military do you belong to? Because I can promise you, in mine it’s not that simple.
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Well, they didn’t. Nor do I think it was ever their plan.
Jaina has had plenty of opportunities to get back at the Horde and always decided not too. So, it would be weird to make her a baddie now.
Lol, sure buddy.