Can you really accuse anyone else of REEEEEEEEEEEEing when you’re repeatedly and angrily denying that the Alliance ever does anything wrong, and constantly relitigating Teldrassil…
…in a thread specifically about why the Tauren don’t like the Alliance?
No, in this case, they didn’t. Fact: Alliance conscripted criminals as soldiers. Said criminals went AWOL and comitted more crimes. No one was reformed. Neither were they “normal soldiers”.
Again, Keys, Drunk Drivers, incidents that could have been prevented if people were smart.
Twenty-five people all saw their own character getting to be the one who blasted N’Zoth. Where’s the magic Blizzard printed statement saying this person’s character or that person’s character is more canon than mine or yours?
There isn’t.
So your claims that Horde players’ Heart of Azeroth aren’t canon is just as hollow as me saying that there are twenty-five Hearts of Azeroth at the same time even though we only see our own.
It’s pretty much fruitless to try.
Yes it is, if it leads to criminals performing crimes, which is exactly what happened.
No one “forced” the Alliance to do anything. They made the choice to mine Azurite and make Azurite weapons. And it wasn’t on behalf of Azeroth’s well being either. It was the Alliance having self-preservation in mind and wanting a level playing field against the Horde. Pure and simple.
I take it you didn’t read the novel then.
Very well. Turalyon using the Light to physically subdue the subject and Alleria using the Void to invade their minds and extract information. This was done to an orc woman, a mother in this case. They were trying to get information on Sylvanas and all they got was which way a Dark Ranger went.
Another subject of said torture was a human smuggler, where Jaina witnessed it being performed and was disturbed by what she saw. This was, after all, Turalyon and Alleria, two of the Alliance’s greatest heroes performing morally dark actions. One can argue that they had justifiable reasons seeing as they were hunting Sylvanas and all, but still. Not a shred of remorse by either of them for doing this. Alleria went so far as to be offended that Jaina reported her actions to Anduin.
All in all it wasn’t the brightest moment for the Alliance and certainly not as bad as some poor civvy who didn’t want to talk about which way a dark ranger went.
You’d have an argument if any of the turtured peoples were harboring Hitler, but seeing as they weren’t, what was it all for?
Says the person who’s performing an ungodly amount of mental gymnastics to say, “It Wasn’t The Alliance’s Fault!!!”
For as much as Alliance posters seem to want to be “proactive” and strike against the horde, they seem to be really angry when you point out that they have done those exact things.
They want to have their cake and eat it too, I guess.
They don’t want the cake hun. They want the whole d@mn bakery, plus the cake.
Such as?
10char
A conversation I had with an Alliance fan earlier this year:
Me: “So you agree that the Alliance should be more aggressive and start the next war?”
Alliance Fan: “Yes! Everything Alliance does to the Horde is justified!”
Me: “What if the Alliance goes so far as to burn down all of Thunder Bluff, puts tauren children on roasting spits, and chows down while their parents are forced to watch?”
AF: “Everything Alliance does to the Horde is justified!”
Me: “And Alliance would still be the morally superior heroes after this?”
AF: “YES!!!”
So you met a hyperbolic strawman. Congratulations.
Frankly even among most viciously partisan Alliance fans the tauren are the one Horde race they’re usually disinclined to lump in with the rest as being generally deserving of retribution across the board for the Horde’s past actions.
A strawman would imply such a person doesn’t exist, right? There Alliance fans who are just as happy to nuke anything Horde related, including the Tauren, just like there are Horde fans who think Sylvanas did nothing wrong. Basically vicious partisanship exists on both sides of the aisle.
As far as I’m aware, the Alliance has never disavowed they did this. I mean, Hawthorne literally arrested them for doing so, so the Alliance took responsibility for it.
Canonically, only one person has the Heart. The “Champion of Azeroth” as far as Magni is concerned, is neither Alliance or Horde, even if they use the Heart for their own agendas.
In the Cinematics, it’s clear that only one person (your character from their point of view) has and uses the Heart so that’s sort of canon.
Even against G’Huun, you don’t get that visual so, canonically, neither side has it.
It’s the same thing in Legion when YOUR HERO had the Legendary Artifact Weapon and used it to drain the Sword. It didn’t matter that the next person also had the exact same Weapon and also got the same cinematic.
There’s tons of “Alliance should slaughter the Horde down to the very last person” sentiment, idk what you’re talking about.
Which, again, is super ironic given how the very same posters often put themselves on the moral high horse.
So even the Alliance are willing to admit their “Oops” in the canon. Good to know!
Thanks.
It’s still left to ambiguity which side actually gets the N’Zoth kill until Blizzard specifically says who gets it. They’ve done this in the past in volumes of Chronicles, which, IMO, was a mistake because it kind of discredits any efforts the players had in taking down said lore boss.
“Sorry guys but you didn’t get the kill unless you did it as a Horde/Alliance toon”
There are a few exceptions to this. Arthas, for instance, given the history and lore behind his rise to power, would make more sense if he was taken down by the Alliance instead of the Horde. The same with G’Huun seeing as the entirety of the Horde levling experience through Zandalar is centered around fighting him and his followers. All that effort just to have Blizzard say “Sorry guys, Alliance killed G’Huun but thanks for playing anyway.”
Yeah, no thanks.
As far as I know, G’Huun is the first and only time only one side canonically killed a raid boss (plenty of Dungeons but never a raid.) Every other time, they had parallel stories for both sides that mirrored each other, or in the case of Garrosh, canonically both sides were there and fought him, though neither side got the kill.
Eeeh, the Forsaken and Blood elves had as much beef with him as the Alliance did as a whole. Sylvanas getting to do a hot load of nothing to really hurt him when she was his number one victim was kinda crap.
Chronicles split up the “canon” kills for each faction iirc, which was a really dumb move.
Thank you for being a mature voice, it’s crazy how these threads devolve into a feces throwing contest. I agree with your post and the one that tauren are very loyal and bound to their generational blood oath.
Most of them seemed to be marked as being killed by “Both” though.
And you make a fair point about the blood elves and the Forsaken.
Aww I miss the party. Well encase anyone hasn’t stated it, the Taurens have shed too much blood for the horde to leave it. It would be a spit in the face for all who died for the horde.
Not only that, but geographically, it would be a nightmare to split from the horde. The horde has three racial allies right next door to them(orcs, trolls and goblins). It would be awful for these allies to turn into enemies, while also fighting off centaurs and those pigs folks. There’s no guarantee that the alliance would accept them either, they could leave the horde just to be attacked on all sides. Even if the alliance did accept, the alliance has a HORRIBLE track record of keeping their allies safe on kalimdor. First they lost theromone, and now teldrassil. I wouldn’t trust the alliance to keep thunder bluff safe from the horde.
The hilarious thing is I am not doing that. I am just denying the specific claims you are making.
So absolutely none of the soldiers were non Criminals? It was 100% made up of former criminals?
Is the Bar responsible for a Drunk Driver? Or the drink he was having? Or maybe it’s the car manufacturer?
You’re right… so we have to resign to a big question mark. Saying “I don’t know” seems more reasonable to me than to assume every player is canon and each and every single one got their very own heart of Azeroth, and every single one who finish Ny’alotha canonically killed N’zoth.
You see, I am not the one saying the canonical champion is Alliance, I am just saying we can’t definitively say who it is, therefore we cannot definitely say which dungeons or which raids the Heart of Azeroth has been present in. Which means, we cannot definitely say that Magni gave the heart of Azeroth to the Horde, because we just don’t know who he gave it too.
Which means the point you made was done so completely without any support from the lore.
I, however, never made a claim. I just refuted yours.
Criminals perform crimes regardless. You know, not arresting people preventively because they might perform crimes also leads to criminals performing crimes. You think everyone should be locked away just in case they might be criminals?
Or what about criminals who have served their sentence, get out, and perform more crime. Should we just make all crime punishable by life imprisonment?
The Horde did. I have explained why multiple time. You just ignore it.
You said it yourself. You see that as evil? Fair enough. I see it as necessary and serving a greater purpose. If we want to speak objectively, we can say the Alliance has done evil things, but it has always been done so for the sake of a greater good. So what purpose does objective declarations of moral virtue or lack there of accomplish, other than to vindicate salty Horde players, who spend all day complaining about how the Alliance isn’t painted in an evil light often enough?
Like, y’all don’t see how silly you are all being…
They had information about a dark ranger that they weren’t giving up willingly. That’s aiding a fugitive… one guilty of multiple war crimes…
I don’t care about the moral virtue of the Alliance… I am just refuting you’re points because I think they are wrong. I have gone on my own tangents about how I feel about the Alliance. I just don’t think they are guilty of the same things you seem to think they are guilty for.
Lbr, it’s probably a HuMaN GuY
Does that really matter?
If even one ex-Con was conscripted by the Alliance who went and performed war crimes at Taurajo, that’s on the Alliance.
No, the person who gave them they keys knowing they had a record of DUI and wondering why people are angry at him when someone dies in a drunken auto-accident is responsible.
That’s the anology of what the Alliance is doing by using ex-cons in their military and wondering “How could this have happened?” when those people go AWOL and become criminals again.
As far as I’m concerned, he gave it to my toon.
As far as you’re concerned, he gave it your toon.
As far as Blizzard’s concerned, he gave it to “Azeroth’s Champion”.
It really doesn’t need to go further than that.
My claim is that Magni grants the Heart to Horde players which would indicate he’s forgiven any attempts to mine Azurite in the past or he recognizes he needs their help. I’ve had arguments with folks in the past who thought Horde players shouldn’t have got the Heart because reasons.
But I’m sure you’re not one of those.
No. I do think taking criminals out of jail making them soldiers is a bad idea, even if they are convenient canon fodder during a time of war.
They really didn’t though. Alliance still made the choice to have Azurite just to even out the playing field. They promised to not mine Azurite. They saw Horde mining Azurite still, they went back on their promise because “Horde’s doing it, we must do it as well”.
Broken promise is still broken.
Even after the Horde stopped Azurite mining around the wound when Magni, the Earthen Ring, and Cenarion Circle began seeing to the wound, they STILL were mining and making weapons. So you can’t really use “They did it to stop the Horde from hurting the World Soul” as an excuse anymore either.
It was an a pure and simple arms race perpetrated by two parties, and nothing more.
Yes, I do. It was an ugly action to take even if it was in the service of protecting the Alliance and Azeroth as a whole. I can’t deny the results, of course. Considering the intelligence they gained from such methods led to the exposure of Sylvanas minions in Zandalar, they contributed to the saving of the lives of Talanji and Bwonsamdi.
That doesn’t change the fact that they resorted to morally questionable tactics against civilians.
The part that really disturbs me is how utterly devoid of any guilt or shame they had over doing it. There’s zero sense of “This is necessary but it feels wrong and we should feel bad for doing it and try to be better in the future”. Alarya goes so far as get peeved at Jaina for even daring to have an issue with her methods.
Alleria and Turalyon crossed a dark line, even if was for “the greater good”. What happens when the cross the next dark line for “the greater good”?
And the next?
And the next?
When does it become wrong?
How many more civilians have to suffer or die for “The Greater Good”?