Agreed and I think the divide of it makes it worse so it’s a big screw you I’m gonna do what I want mentality. Sadly it doesn’t solve anything.
You do realize that the selfish, “me me me” attitude comes from the people expecting 19 other people to carry them right?
Elevating and accepting new people into the content happens all the time. Recruiting never really stops, and anyone who aspires to reach higher has the ability to. They have to put forth the effort to be noticed, and they need to show they’re capable of doing the content. It’s entirely on their shoulders - and while they’re trying to prove themselves, the group is taking them to content above what they’re used to anyway and giving them gear.
The only people making it harder to do harder content are those who are not willing to put forth the time and effort. Can you tell me exactly how the mythic raiders are gatekeeping and actively preventing people from doing harder content?
All the increasingly raised standards and the constant push to make gear which would make them meet those standards out of their hands. A simple ilevel isn’t enough. They demand previous AoTC Achievements and such.
1 Like
Players just want to make sure they’re playing with equally competent players.
4 Likes
The easier it is to get a high ilvl, the higher the ilvl people will want for content because given how easy it is to get that ilvl - it doesn’t show anything. Ilvl is a preliminary filter, there are other ways to avoid inviting people who won’t contribute to the group but it’s a good start.
Previous AotC isn’t hard, and it’s almost entirely for PuGs. They don’t have time to deal with people who may have no experience at all. PuGs are very different from organized groups, too.
This entirely. It’s not their responsibility nor in their interest to carry players that aren’t necessarily ready for the content.
It’s not selfish of them in the same way it’s not selfish of someone in a group assignment in school to not want to do more than their share of the work.
Cool, so when I do get into a Mythic group. Make sure my DPS and interrupts are only at the exact same number as every other DPS. Because if I pull ahead I’m doing more then my fair share.
Sounds like a winning personality.
What ever happened to it being about the team effort, and not the individual?
1 Like
If you’re putting more effort into the encounter and into your numbers, yeah. You’re pulling more than your fair share - and the group generally will address that.
When it comes to doing the hardest content, no one should be having to work harder to cover for someone else.
The team effort is to work together. Someone slacking off and wanting others to work harder is not team effort. That counts for not even prepping their character properly.
2 Likes
Eh, what if they’re trying their best though, and are just struggling? Should they just be abandoned?
I never go into content expecting a carry, but sometimes despite my best efforts it feels like I come up short. I do feel like this game demands perfection and those who can’t deliver should just go lay down in the street and die.
3 Likes
Then you lose out, because this isn’t a game. It’s a place to be serious and if you mess up…well you are out.
2 Likes
Actually it’s because the pool of players in a cross realm environment is essentially infinitely large. In the absence of access to player data, the group leader would have no way of putting together a group to improve its chance of success.
I think you are greatly overestimating the pugging community on individual realms before cross-realm play became a thing.
No, if someone is trying (and it’s pretty clear when they are), it’s normal that they need help. And that help can be given - in the form of log reviews (especially useful for rotational help, positioning, and uptime on things), and assistance with other things. Sometimes players legitimately need help with things, and those that are willing to ask and receive that help (and any criticism) will get it. A player willing to work and learn is a valuable recruit, and not something a good group would pass up.
But that’s not the type of player we’re talking about here. We’re more referring to lazy, entitled players who think they shouldn’t have to do the bare minimum. The ones who blame other people for why they can’t get into content. They never realize the people “gatekeeping” just don’t want to play with them - and no one should have to play with someone.
6 Likes
That’s fair. And I agree with you. These threads just kinda get to me is all. I can agree that reading an icy-veins page and buying some enchants shouldn’t be a controversial thing. I’ve just faced other issues with things in the past. I still struggle trying to figure out logs, and simming, and occasionally do mess up my rotation. I’d get knocked back while trying to cast a GS, accidently burn a flurry proc, and lose DPS as a result. And speaking of which, I’m using those spells because I’ve given up on even playing Fire, the current meta spec, as it’s genuinely too tough for me to play.
There are times I do feel like I should just be expected to go lay down and die as a non-perfect, struggling player in the game. That only the hyper-skilled have a place here, etc etc.
4 Likes
I loved the training grounds system. I could just have my sister hop on my druid (who I did not and still do not know how to play), and then after ~30 minutes, I would be qualified for so many groups!
No well run guild will use a gkick or perma-bench as a first resort to someone struggling.
That’s just straight up inefficient when you factor in that recruiting is easily the hardest thing about running a guild, especially a Mythic guild. Forget Vael, forget Firefighter, forget M KJ, the recruitment boss is the real guild-killer.
We need to draw the distinction between PuG’s and guilds. Guilds are in it for the long haul, they have incentive to help the struggling if it’s possible and to teach new blood, even if only because helping someone is typically far easier than recruiting their replacement.
But PuG’s are not in it for the long-haul. They don’t exist in content where you’re willing to put in dozens, if not hundreds of pulls to make a strategy work. Unlike guilds, they value the immediate baseline and that will always mean that they will have far higher standards for their groups than guilds will, purely because they don’t have the luxury of investing the time or resources into raising someone up who they’ll likely never play with again.
5 Likes
at some point, if they’re holding the team back? yes
I’m not advocating to toss people out without trying to address issues. But sometimes, someone just doesn’t/can’t/won’t play up to par with the content. And if one person repeatedly making the same mistake, doing the same low damage, dying in the same spot, is preventing the entire team from moving forward, it might be time to consider sitting them and swapping someone else in who can get the job done.
Work with them. Try to help them, but if they’re just not getting it, remember that that individual is not more important than everyone else in the raid.
this. a guild (well, a good one) is going to help the person struggling. If it’s low dps, someone might do a log analysis, if it’s a gearing issue, they’ll help fill in missing pieces, if it’s a mechanics issue, usually anyone on the team will help explain something.
no one is going “well, bob died, let’s gkick him”.
everyone does at times
eh. I disagree. people make all kinds of mistakes.
Case in point, me. There’s a probably 70% chance I’m going to fall into Rezan’s pit any time I try to snap the saurids.
in Antorus, I fell OFF aggramar’s platform during progression. S-keyed right off of it when I was trying to back the boss up.
in BoD, I accidently popped gunshoes instead of feast right before the start of a mythic Jaina pull, and shot myself right off the boat.
I’ve mistaunted mobs, gone the wrong way on psychus phase routes, forgot I had balance affinity and was JUST outside of melee range so the basher tentacles killed some melee…etc.
people make mistakes. All of the above mistakes I’ve made were in high m+ keys or mythic raid progression. The thing that’s important is how you learn from them.
and, frankly, how your raid or dungeon group reacts. that’s where grouping with a guild or friends comes into play. We have a couple of my best mistakes caught in VoD’s on our blooper real and still laugh about them at times.
well that’s a little extreme
6 Likes
You mean proving grounds? Proving grounds were a requirement for entering wod heroic dungeons for most of warlords. I never heard of any leader-made groups requiring proving grounds. In fact, there were constant complaints during wod that “bad players got into my heroic dungeons”. It might have had something to do with the fact that what was tested didn’t really resemble typical dungeon mechanics.
But in any case, they finally removed it toward the end, as many of the people they’d hoped to inspire to greatness by failing a weird test with banana-tossers in it actually quit because they didn’t think they should be paying a monthly fee to take tests on all their alts.
1 Like
best description of proving grounds.
they were so bizarre, and completely inaccurate for what they were trying to do.
5 Likes
On a 300 pull fight, you don’t take 299 pulls to learn the fight and then kill it on the 300th.
Realistically individually everyone has learned the fight 200 pulls ago, and you spend the next 200 pulls trying to get a pull where no-one makes an oopsie.
That’s just how progression works, and WoW progression wouldn’t work as a concept if people couldn’t tolerate mistakes.
That doesn’t mean they’ll tolerate everything, falling into N’zoths pit might get a laugh or two if you do it every 50 pulls, but if you’re consistently going Insane cause you’re not moving out of stuff, then people tend to get frustrated.
It’s all about whether you can learn from those mistakes, not that you’re consistently making them.
4 Likes
I’m fortunate enough in a weird way that I’m too terrified to blindly pug with complete strangers, and that I only run content with my guild (whom I know won’t judge) or friends. But it’s because of them that I still want to try my hardest, because I care about the people I run with.
Last week when running H Ny’alotha I was shocked to learn that I had regressed in DPS. I later realized that the reason was my corruption resistance outpaced my Heart of Darkness requirement and I had no immediate way to correct that. The community would have probably said I should have bought that 475 offhand with a mastery corruption to fix it, but 300k is genuinely a lot for me and I felt like a failure of a player for not buying it.
I just feel like my mistakes are more permenant, that I can never reach the DPS that raidbots tells me to, that somehow my sim numbers are all wrong, etc etc. Don’t think I’d ever become a mythic worthy raider.
Eh, I was being metaphorical there.