Why does Raid Loot feel so mediocre

Community General Discussion
1

…compared to Dungeon Loot? This has been bugging me for a while.

In legion it was fine. I did some +10s for my cache and there were definitely some good gear that could come from the content, but there were three things holding back dungeon loot from being incredibly important. Tier sets, artifact weapons, and legiondaries. With these three aspects 7 slots of your gear was accounted for meaning about half of your slots couldn’t be touched by dungeon loot/caches.

I’ll be honest I can’t remember what the cache to mythic raid loot disparity was in Legion, but with the above accounted for it gave me a big reason not to fret over mythic+ that much because it was such a crap shoot from the beginning. Even if I got a slot I could use I needed it to be itemized properly. But what I can tell is that right now it’s a 5 ilevel drop from mythic raiding and can TF all the way to 425 and with it being able to contain any non-azerite item from dungeons it’s an incredible chance to get an almost mythic quality piece of gear every week and this is where the issue lies.

The bottom line is that dungeon itemization is far more diverse than raid loot is thanks to having far more bosses available, but in BFA it is also no longer being confined by its past constraints both in terms of ilevel (pre mythic+) and the fact that nothing is deterring it from competing for a slot. If dungeon loot is going to continue to get to have a “fair” shake to competing against raid loot like it currently is it will continue to dominate because it has the ability to be far more diverse than raid loot can ever hope to be.

I don’t really know what the solution is. I like the M+ system and I like being able to get some relevant upgrades from M+, but right now the gap is not nearly as big as it should be. If I wanted to be the best geared out there I could honestly do it almost entirely via dungeons (two best fury trinkets are from Uldir and COS). And sadly I’m a stone’s throw away from that as it is. Only 3 (four if you double up my weapons) of my items are from raids and I find that disappointing.

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2

It’s because there’s no more tier from raids.
People that want to push M+ don’t need to raid.

Kind of no incentive to raid if all you care about is gear.

In Legion you had to at least pug Heroic to get tier sets to remain competitive in M+.

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Don’t even need to do Mythic+ at all in BFA to be honest.

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You don’t need to do any content in WoW. Just depends on what you want to achieve.

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And now the shoe is on the other foot. Dungeon trinkets and WQ trinkets (if they TF high enough) seem to be extremely competitive compared to raid trinkets ATM. Prior to COS there was only one obscenely good Fury trinket (from Uldir), but otherwise dungeon trinkets really held the reins.

I don’t really want the shoe to be back on the foot where dungeon players feel like they need to do raid content to push high keys, but I also know the current system doesn’t really feel good because while gear isn’t the only thing I care about I certainly enjoy clearing new bosses and getting new drops unlocked to me so that I can gradually gear him out. Without that aspect available to raiding there is a certain level of enjoyment lost.

6

Yeah, I don’t know which is better. It feels good to not have to raid to do M+ if you don’t want to, but on the other hand it kind of made raiding not worth it.

Method only killed Jaina twice for example. Just no reason to work that hard for such a minimal reward beyond the initial kill.

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Neither, you’re just spiting one pillar of the community or the other.

They could do several things to make dungeons not feel like they dominate the gearing scene for raiders. Just as an example: if they brought back raid sets they could make them not work in M+, but still benefit everywhere else, specifically raids. They could introduce dungeon sets in a similar fashion.

I actually didn’t even realize this. I just assumed they spent half a night reclearing like any top guild does in addition to sales and mount chances, but I can’t blame them if M+ loot is that much more appealing might as well spam the keys and hope for the best. Why bother wasting time on raids for mediocre gear. Hell, they probably run a ton of 10 key sales too I suppose.

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I don’t know the exact reasons why they’ve only killed it twice, but it’s obviously not worth it if the best guild in the world decides not to do it.

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Your original question in the title is “Why does Raid Loot feel so mediocre?”

Several reasons come to mind, and my reasons aren’t about M+ gear. I’m not terribly concerned with gear once I have what I need to do the content. I like a good upgrade like anyone else, but I’m not one of those who stacks bis and then has nothing to do.

So my reasons–because I agree that the raid loot feels lackluster–are these:

1.) There are no class-specific tiers. There is no aesthetic reward for classes, and the gear is traited for roles, not classes. Therefore…

2.) Raid items are rarely BiS for a given character, and they’re not a “set” of BiS for anyone. For my shaman, who prizes crit and vers over haste and mastery, the drops in Daz might be BiS for a hunter or an Ele Sham, but not for me. Since the raid drop isn’t the BiS and it isn’t shaman specific flavor, either, it feels lackluster compared to that BiS drop from a dungeon boss.

Once upon a time, the gear that dropped from raid bosses was guaranteed to be the best thing you could get in that tier for your toon. Achievement had a precise goal. That isn’t the case, anymore.

3.) Azerite Traits are RNG, and they came too late to the party with the residuum vendor…which is also RNG. The entire Azerite system has been “feels bad.” You need certain traits, and almost none of the pieces you can earn have the specific configuration of traits you need. The vendor fixed that problem by allowing us to game it out and figure out which 3-piece combos would be BiS. Still. You farm the residuum and roll the dice. Maybe you get the piece you want; maybe you don’t.

The implications of that system for raid gear tie in to reason #2. If the residuum piece is BiS, it means the raid piece isn’t, so you’re not praying to the loot genie for a raid drop. You’re praying to the loot genie for a favorable roll at the 33% odds residuum vendor.

Very little of that has anything to do with M+ gear. Pitting M+ against raids for supremacy or “who deserves best gear” questions…isn’t useful, I don’t think, and it doesn’t solve the “why can’t I just be excited about my raid drops” question.

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10

Simple answer they took a way raid sets.

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Up until crucible I would have understood this but i cant see it now. Mythic raid loot starts at 415 as well so its just better than dungeon loot can possibly be baseline.

There have always been some good trinkets in 5 mans, and all of my best azerite seems to be from 5 mans, but those items from crucible are unbelievable and the trinket from oppulence is so crazy i might have to be running that well into 8.2.

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For my resto shammy, the Mirror from Rasta is the trinket I need, and I’ve never even seen it drop, much less gotten it for myself. I mean, I’d take it off of normal if I could get it. Sigh.

So it’s not that there aren’t amazing raid drops. It’s a collective big picture that makes people feel some disappointment in the raid loot. Our loot goals culture in WoW has been built around “raids have the best gear” for so long that it’s throwing people off a bit now that it isn’t the case in all situations, anymore.

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I agree with a lot of what you said. I left out a blurb about Azerite gear because I felt like I was rambling, but I also don’t care too much about the BOD gear because it’s not good for me (chest exception).

But I disagree with this bit. Since Blizzard has taken away what made raid gear unique and therefore truly desirable for anyone who wanted the best gear it now competes directly with other sources of content, even WQ gear. As you can see I’ve somewhat lucked out with some boots and they’ve held strong for now, albeit I do have good boots from BOD.

I don’t follow. BOD gear is 415 and so is COS, the COS gear is varying in how good it is for your class. The trinket is really good for Fury and the legs are decent from what I hear. The gloves are a hit or miss depending on raid damage.

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I have the opposite point of view. In Legion I felt that I had to raid too much to get the ideal gear, when all I wanted to do was m+. It all comes down to what you enjoy doing, and what you think should reward the best gear. I’ll probably get flamed, but I think a certain m+ level should reward the same gear as mythic raids, so you never feel forced to do either one.

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I think the biggest content (IE: party size) should reward the best gear, at least on average (TF be damned). I don’t think that’s a crazy concept to abide by, but I also don’t think M+ should be tossed away or anything. I think it should stay relevant and people who don’t want to raid shouldn’t have to do do M+ just like raiders shouldn’t feel like they need to do M+ to raid.

If you kind find a way to differentiate between them then I’m all ears. The problem with the current system is what I said in my OP, dungeon loot is much more diverse. You need a pair of boots with X stats? They likely exist in a dungeon, but in a raid you usually have two options. A lot of my raid gear in BOD is ok to mediocre to not interesting. But I have great options in dungeons.

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My guess is because locking the best things behind a raid is antithetical to their goals for accessibility. I moght be wrong but that’s the only thing that makes sense to me.

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Gear from raids is boring because loot rains down on you from doing the most menial of tasks in game and with WF/TF they can be much higher ilvl than what you would see in a raid, rings have no main stat, raid trinkets have been well trash compared to the trinkets in M+.
Why do hard content that involves more than 5 when you can just farm solo or 5 man content for easier gear.
Everything they have done in the past few xpacs has been devaluing raiding by removing tier and having a power reset each raid tier.

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It’s mostly because of WF/TF crap.

No loot is really satisfying any longer because it’s base level is not bis, and the WF/TF scale is so extreme upwards, that you are pretty much on a never ending treadmill. The chance of actually getting an RNG bis piece is close to zero. And if you don’t get it, then it just feels flat and meaningless.

You never get to a point where you feel like, “Ok, awesome, I achieved what I want for now at the content level I’m doing, this piece is done, now I can just go enjoy running the content without having to worry about any more upgrades on it”.

Now you get, “Oh, I got this piece, but it’s base level and not bis, and there’s no definite way of increasing its power to bis through something like earning currency and spending it to upgrade where if I just do enough work I can get there. So, I’m helpless to help myself, the only thing you can do is keep pulling the slot machine lever, but the chances of managing to get where you want to be are so close to nill that there’s basically no point in bothering to even try.”

In the past, you knew what you were shooting for and when you got the piece you wanted it felt meaningful and good. You knew the loot. You knew what you wanted. You could feel like you achieved that with reasonable amounts of effort. And the pieces felt good to get. Now, it’s like, nothing matters, so why bother even worrying about it, don’t bother really learning the loot, because when you pick it up it’s never going to be satisfying. The only way to deal with the constant frustration is to just stop caring.

And that applies to M+ loot as much as raid loot, but with M+ loot, you can at least keep pulling the slot machine lever over and over and over. With raid loot, you’re locked per week to one try.

And now, with the loss of Master Loot, it’s even more frustrating, because now pieces will drop and you’ll see them go to the people they aren’t good for, who if you have a good team those people would love to trade them to their team mates they would be good for, but you can’t because the trade restrictions are asinine. So now crap tons of loot just gets lost as junk sitting on people who won’t use it as vendor gold or scrap materials, and it feels bad for them who would like to boost their team mates up, and it feels bad for their team mates who see the loot go to waste when they really could use the boost. EPGP has been killed and that just makes the whole frustrating sorry mess feel absolutely awful.

And that doesn’t even touch on the Azerite gear mess. That was a replacement for Tier and Legendary items, and the Artifact weapon, and it’s a wholly insufficient replacement for Tier sets alone.

Gear this xpack just feels like crap. And with the reward structure so awful, you wonder why you keep bothering.

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19

3 groups of WOW players for PvE

  1. Raiders

  2. Mythic+ doers

  3. The Casuals who like to spam WQs and warfronts whenever they have the time to play

Let’s face it. Blizzard can’t possibly satisfy them all. Right now they seem to have chosen the mass majority, the casuals, by giving them free gears to make them feel good for just logging in to play…at the cost of trashing their own raiding content like Uldir rather too soon…

Well, I shouldn’t be complaining since I am the type of player who likes to play many alts and easy gear can only benefit the players of my kind. Still, I wish the game was a bit harder, gears actually meaning something longer than just a couple of months.

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the items from cruciable are a step in the right direction.

people have complained that trinkets in this expansion have fell short beside what’s available from dungeons, and in most cases they have.

but we got much better trinkets from cruciable as well as pants or gloves or whatever depending on your spec, all of which should preform better unless you are using something TF and socketted.

this post made more sense a month ago before we had those plate pants and the mastery trinket but now we do and those are very good drops that come from raids.

just hope the loot next tier follows. if we go back to lackluster options like grong’s primal rage, get angry.